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lucidity
9th March 2012, 06:15 AM
So happy that this amazing lad won BOB at Crufts yesterday! I've been a huge fan of him for a long, long time now. Here's a photo of him I stole off the internet:

[removed by admin: you MUST have permission to crosspost images on a copyright site. You cannot 'steal' them off the internet :thmbsup: ]

That was taken quite long ago, so his fur is even longer now (especially on the ears)! Lyra even shares many ancestors with him (she is from Miletree lines), so that's really cool :)

I'm also a HUGE fan of Miletree Star of India, who won the RBCC. She's such a pretty young lady.

ByFloSin
9th March 2012, 08:15 AM
I agree with you that both these Miletree dogs look absolutely fabulous and well deserved to win their classes. However, and maybe I am biased because of my love of tricolours, but ever since I saw Sherrie Baby first come out as a pup I have absolutely adored her. Such a beautiful coat, well balanced, good bone and the most ravishing top line. I really wanted her to go forward into the group, but it was not to be.

lucidity
9th March 2012, 08:22 AM
Lol, I think I'm the opposite of you! Tricolours are my least favourite colour, and I think I might be a bit biased towards Miletree dogs since Lyra is from their lines, lol.. but Sherrie Baby did very well, too! I actually really LOVE Rathbrist Rhydian--he is absolutely my favourite tricolour. Although, I've only seen him in pictures, so can't really comment on his gait or top line...

I'm also a pretty big fan of Spindlepoint Lyra--perhaps when she gets older she will do even better.

I didn't get to watch--only read the results online. Did any wholecolours win any of the classes? I do wish that we could see more Rubies and B&Ts winning..

sins
9th March 2012, 09:30 AM
Rathbrist Rhydian is just a stunning tricolour.He's just a magnificent showdog,impossible to take your eyes off him.
I've never seen Miletree Constellation in the flesh,but he looked an absolute dream on tv yesterday.It was so disappointing to see him ignored in the group.:(
Can't imagine that was a better pomeranian than he is a cavalier...:mad:
Sorata Don Vito flew the flag for wholecolours,winning his class.
Sins

lucidity
9th March 2012, 11:34 AM
Rathbrist Rhydian is just a stunning tricolour.He's just a magnificent showdog,impossible to take your eyes off him.
I've never seen Miletree Constellation in the flesh,but he looked an absolute dream on tv yesterday.It was so disappointing to see him ignored in the group.:(
Can't imagine that was a better pomeranian than he is a cavalier...:mad:
Sorata Don Vito flew the flag for wholecolours,winning his class.
Sins

Yes! Rhydian is amazing. He is just stunning. I'm in constant awe at his amazing build, and that great broken up tricolour coat that is SO hard to breed for! His head is amazing as well. I was rather hoping to see him at Crufts. He would have done SO well..

Oh no! Had no idea that the Pomeranian won group :( I find that Poms win the toy group a lot.. it's always the same around here! They always either win group of BIS.

So good to hear that there was a whole colour winner in a class! I really love them--their expression is so much more appreciable when they are seen up close, especially the rubies.

Lyra's grandsire was MRI'd Grade A and heart clear at 5 years of age (he is a Miletree import). Sunny is already a very, very popular stud dog, though! Spindlepoint Lyra, who won her class is one of his offsprings.

Kate H
9th March 2012, 02:45 PM
There's a video on the KC website of the Toy Group judging with some nice views of the Cavalier. On the website, click on Crufts (on the right-hand side), click on Interactive, then Videos and then click on the list of videos to find the right one. We need top breeders who can lead by example (and I know there are already a lot doing a great job). Just wish they'd go a bit more public and be proud of it in their adverts in the Cavalier Club Year Book, for example - Miletree don't mention it in theirs this year, but we need to get to the point where it's the first thing any prospective stud-dog user or puppy buyer looks for.

Kate, Oliver and Aled - wasting too much time today watching Crufts on YouTube!

Brian M
9th March 2012, 03:22 PM
Hi

Thanks Kate I shall watch on my laptop later .I put the TV on at 6.15 last night ready to watch it all and I managed 45 seconds before I had to turn it off ,within 5 seconds of it starting Poppy spotted dogs on the telly and alerted the other three then all hell let loose so I had no choice but to turn it off so I shall view carefully with no sound on the laptop later even though its all recorded .Just realised they all go to the groomers tomorrow for 9.30 am so I will have a good few hours alone so I could view it all on the big screen in peace and quiet .

lucidity
9th March 2012, 04:01 PM
I just managed to watch the Toy group judging on Youtube! Thanks, Kate.

Have to say that I absolutely loved the spunk in that Pomeranian and the Bichon Frise. Was so tickled to see the Pom jumping around happily and the Bichon walking so fast around the ring that his handler had to run to catch up! He even knew EXACTLY where to go. Such charm!

It was kind of sad to see the judge ignore Sunny, though :( He did seem a little nervous and moved his muzzle away when she was looking at his teeth. Seems like the judge picked the most outgoing dogs? The Papillon had an incredible stack, though!

Kate H
9th March 2012, 07:28 PM
By and large (with a few notable exceptions) Cavaliers don't do very well in Groups. I think what judges look for at that level (as well as closeness to the breed standard) is a real 'Look at me - I'm the best!' attitude that grabs the judge and somehow dominates the ring, and most Cavaliers just don't have that sort of temperament when in competition with other, more bossy and bustling breeds!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
9th March 2012, 07:47 PM
Just a reminder: please do not crosspost images of anyone's dogs unless you have direct permission to use the individual photo. I have removed the image.

Also: please do not post guesses on scanning grades of cavaliers. The information MUST be known as a fact -- it is very misleading if it turns out a dog does not have the grade -- for better or worse -- than what was supposed.

I have edited posts that contained discussions of this information to remove that information.

The bottom line is: breeders have the ability to post their scan information now thanks to the new MateSelect and BVA/KC grading scheme. Doing so will be what puppy buyers and other breeders increasingly look for, for verified information on a dog's grades and a breeder's commitment to health testing. :)

It is always worrying if a single dog becomes a very very popular sire and geneticists widely consider this a critical problem in pedigree dogs generally -- that creates the genetic bottlenecks that lead to breed health issues because generations of dogs end up closely related. When a problem like say. MVD or SM is endemic, it is very difficult to find lines that do not carry these damaging genes and already the worsening of the problem has been in part attributed to 'popular sire syndrome'. Older, distinct lines are now gone as show breeders rush to use the narrow range of winning sires, and lines become more and more closely related to other lines already affected with the unwanted genes. Problems then become very impossible to recover from, because the genetic options are so narrow. That's one of the real issues right now with SM -- there are no clear lines to go to, to breed away more easily fro these two condition.

There's a very strong argument in this breed to limit the number of litters any male can sire (the case in Sweden).

Testing breeders who carefully evaluate what dogs theirs are bred to, are exactly what the breed needs. :)

Margaret C
13th March 2012, 07:32 PM
The bottom line is: breeders have the ability to post their scan information now thanks to the new MateSelect and BVA/KC grading scheme. Doing so will be what puppy buyers and other breeders increasingly look for, for verified information on a dog's grades and a breeder's commitment to health testing. :)




We will increasingly be able to see which of the cavalier clubs' health representatives and committee members do MRI and at what age their dogs are scanned before being bred from.

The beautiful dog that won BOB at Crufts is already a well used stud dog. He has sired 103 puppies from 25 litters, the majority of them before he was two and a half years old.

He sired his first litter at 13 months.
His second was at 14 months to a bitch that was 21 months.
His third litter was when he was 15 months.

If he was ever MRI'd and/or heart tested he was too young for the checks to count for anything.

This is why the cavalier has so very little chance of a healthy future.

Sabby
13th March 2012, 09:40 PM
We will increasingly be able to see which of the cavalier clubs' health representatives and committee members do MRI and at what age their dogs are scanned before being bred from.

The beautiful dog that won BOB at Crufts is already a well used stud dog. He has sired 103 puppies from 25 litters, the majority of them before he was two and a half years old.

He sired his first litter at 13 months.
His second was at 14 months to a bitch that was 21 months.
His third litter was when he was 15 months.

If he was ever MRI'd and/or heart tested he was too young for the checks to count for anything.

This is why the cavalier has so very little chance of a healthy future.

Beauty before health yet again. Not a breeder I would want to buy from.

tealcisgod04
13th March 2012, 10:22 PM
This is why the cavalier has so very little chance of a healthy future.

So sad and depressing that this is happening to the world's most wonderful breed :(

KingCav
13th March 2012, 11:56 PM
We will increasingly be able to see which of the cavalier clubs' health representatives and committee members do MRI and at what age their dogs are scanned before being bred from.

The beautiful dog that won BOB at Crufts is already a well used stud dog. He has sired 103 puppies from 25 litters, the majority of them before he was two and a half years old.

He sired his first litter at 13 months.
His second was at 14 months to a bitch that was 21 months.
His third litter was when he was 15 months.

If he was ever MRI'd and/or heart tested he was too young for the checks to count for anything.

This is why the cavalier has so very little chance of a healthy future.

Is this kind of bitching really neccessary? It seems to me that there were enough problems at Crufts this year without people here joining in. How sad. If you don't like what this particular breeder does then you don't have to use his dogs.
Penny

Margaret C
14th March 2012, 01:16 AM
Is this kind of bitching really neccessary? It seems to me that there were enough problems at Crufts this year without people here joining in. How sad. If you don't like what this particular breeder does then you don't have to use his dogs.
Penny

No, what is sad is that there is no way of stopping the puppies produced by this type of risky irresponsible breeding going into the cavalier gene pool to compromise the future generations of cavaliers.

I think it is perfectly in order to flag up the situation when someone who stands as a cavalier club committee member and takes the position of club health representative drives a horse and cart through the breeding guidelines for both MVD & SM.

Why court the publicity that being a health representative brings if you do not mean to put the health of the breed first?

Try reading some of the accounts written by owners of SM affected dogs and feeling their distress and the poor dogs' pain. I think that explains to anyone who is not a blinkered breeder why criticism is justified.

RodRussell
14th March 2012, 01:48 AM
By and large (with a few notable exceptions) Cavaliers don't do very well in Groups. I think what judges look for at that level (as well as closeness to the breed standard) is a real 'Look at me - I'm the best!' attitude that grabs the judge and somehow dominates the ring, and most Cavaliers just don't have that sort of temperament when in competition with other, more bossy and bustling breeds!

Thank goodness. I cringe when a cavalier wins group.

Karlin
14th March 2012, 06:05 AM
It seems to me that there were enough problems at Crufts this year without people here joining in.

Are you joking? "Problems"? The Kennel Club finally took a brave stance that it should have years ago. We have already "joined in" in many other threads so not sure what you are talking about.

And as for Margaret's comments? Margaret is the former (and longtime) health representative for the UK national CKCS club.

Her comments are a very eye opening list of facts that sadly indicate yet again, how too many breeders are totally ignoring health protocols often while insisting they are health-focused breeders. This is what is devastating this breed. For nearly two decades the MVD protocol has advised against ever breeding cavaliers under age 2.5. Heart tests and MRIs are meaningless until cavaliers are at least 2.5. Too many of these people then pay lip service to being health focused and publicly complain they are being 'tarred with the same brush' as the breeders who do not test/don't follow protocols -- when often they are one and the same.

Cavalier health and welfare issues are a major focus of this site.

Your comments and attitude indicate they aren't to you. And thus I am sure you will find another community that suits you better. I hope in time you will learn more and care more about the breed you now own because it needs informed people ready to demand that all breeders take health seriously, not just whether a dog is pretty in the show ring.

honeybun
14th March 2012, 10:59 AM
"And thus I am sure you will find another community that suits you better."

Karlin. Why would you be so harsh as to get rid of a member who was simply expressing an opinion in a civilised way and who called for a little more kindness in dealing with others?

tealcisgod04
14th March 2012, 12:08 PM
Is this kind of bitching really neccessary? It seems to me that there were enough problems at Crufts this year without people here joining in. How sad. If you don't like what this particular breeder does then you don't have to use his dogs.
Penny

I hate to say it, but this kind of bitching is absolutely necessary if we are to save the breed before it is too late. We should be thinking about all dogs and not just the ones we use.

Davecav
14th March 2012, 12:45 PM
I hate to say it, but this kind of bitching is absolutely necessary if we are to save the breed before it is too late. We should be thinking about all dogs and not just the ones we use.

Do you breed cavaliers? Which ones do you use?

honeybun
14th March 2012, 12:58 PM
I hate to say it, but this kind of bitching is absolutely necessary if we are to save the breed before it is too late. We should be thinking about all dogs and not just the ones we use.

Tealcisgod04. Dont you feel Penny is also entitled to say what she feels? What was so shocking that she needs to be thrown off the Forum? I am not seeing what her crime was? Please try to help me understand as I cannot see what she said that was so bad?

tealcisgod04
14th March 2012, 01:32 PM
Do you breed cavaliers? Which ones do you use?

No I don't breed Cavaliers. I would love too some day as since I fell in love with the breed, I think about few other things... if they are still around by the time I retire... or if I have a lottery win then who knows :o

When I said we, I was talking about the Jungian collective WE. Sorry, I should have been clearer. :p

tealcisgod04
14th March 2012, 01:46 PM
Tealcisgod04. Dont you feel Penny is also entitled to say what she feels? What was so shocking that she needs to be thrown off the Forum? I am not seeing what her crime was? Please try to help me understand as I cannot see what she said that was so bad?

Penny is definately entitled to her opinion. What was her crime? She didn't commit one but my response (which may have been a bit polemic, I apologise) was to her (well intentioned) remark that another forum user should not pour cold water (I doubt the user was meaning to pour cold water) on a Crufts winner by bringing up the fact that that dog has fathered (sired) three litters by the age of 15 months (now THAT is a crime IMHO).

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 02:05 PM
I think we all need to sit back and think about what the future really holds for the Cavalier. I mean really think! I have at my time at Crufts, I've spoken to many people

We have reached crisis point ( well actually I think we are way past crisis point) and I don't really think there is any way back.
The only protocol we have to rest on is the CM/SM BVA/KC breeding protocol. Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.
I have one of them
Everytime 2 dogs with CM are bred ( clear of SM) you double a fault.

Our only chance of breeding dogs with out SM is by breeding the ones with CM alone.

Now realistically where does that leave the Cavalier of the future?

I'm going to say non existent.... Now that may be a controversial point but I dont think there is a future unless an outcross program is developed sharpish!
I'm not talking about re creating a breed I'm talking about outcrossing.

I want Cavaliers in my future and I couldn't give two hoots if 30 years ago a Different kind of spaniel was used to make it that way!!

Autaven
14th March 2012, 02:22 PM
Well said Karen and I couldn't agree more. Who exactly is it who is responsible for the outcrossing program? Is it something breeders have to look into themselves and speak to the Kennel Club about? I'm afraid all I know about it is from what I've heard on PDE and Fiona.

honeybun
14th March 2012, 02:25 PM
Karen and Autaven. The outcrossing thought is one I never considered. Will you be doing it, if not who would breed these puppies?

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 02:34 PM
There isn't one, that's the problem. And it certainly isn't something that should be attempted by anyone.

It needs to be through either the animal health trust, it maybe the BVA, I don't know but geneticists need to be the ones doing it. The genes associated with SM and CM are so complicated. And then there is heart disease to think about too.

It's a complex thing and not something that should be attempted by the novice or even experienced breeder, of which I am neither!

Davecav
14th March 2012, 02:50 PM
1. How can an outcrossing programme be even thought about or attempted when the genes for Sm and heart disease haven't been found? All that will happen is that these genes will be masked a little and new lethal genes added from the breed you outcross to.
The dalmation outcross worked because the gene involved was a single recessive one that had been identified if I remember rightly from reading about it.
Designer dogs are now exhibiting health problems from both sets of outcross parents - cockapoos, sproogles, labradoodles etc. In fact the person who invented the labradoodle wishes he never had done as it's opened up such a pandoras box.

2 Karen says
Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.

How do we know that Cavaliers that didn't have Chiari Malformation in the past as their 'natural' skull shape anyway? MRI scans were not available all those years aog, and I can't see many heartbroken owners of dead Cavaliers keeping their skulls for prosperity. It could be that CM has always been part of the Cavalier's makeup? I'ts just that something has gone badly wrong along the way and a mutant gene or genes have developed in the meantime so as to cause the introduction of SM.




2.

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 03:02 PM
Well then they shouldn't be bred anymore.

It's extremely selfish to keep breeding for our own benefit of having a Cavalier when these dogs are living in pain.

Do you know for fact that the genes haven't been found yet?

Yes the Dalmatian was much easier and yes it could happen all over again but if these dogs will die out its important that we learn something from it!

What's your suggestion?

I don't think it's fair on the dogs to carry on and hope this disappears because it won't.

It's time the dogs were put as a priority!

anniemac
14th March 2012, 03:23 PM
1. How can an outcrossing programme be even thought about or attempted when the genes for Sm and heart disease haven't been found? All that will happen is that these genes will be masked a little and new lethal genes added from the breed you outcross to.
The dalmation outcross worked because the gene involved was a single recessive one that had been identified if I remember rightly from reading about it.
Designer dogs are now exhibiting health problems from both sets of outcross parents - cockapoos, sproogles, labradoodles etc. In fact the person who invented the labradoodle wishes he never had done as it's opened up such a pandoras box.

2 Karen says
Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.

How do we know that Cavaliers that didn't have Chiari Malformation in the past as their 'natural' skull shape anyway? MRI scans were not available all those years aog, and I can't see many heartbroken owners of dead Cavaliers keeping their skulls for prosperity. It could be that CM has always been part of the Cavalier's makeup? I'ts just that something has gone badly wrong along the way and a mutant gene or genes have developed in the meantime so as to cause the introduction of SM.




2.

Very Well said and thought out. I agree completely. People are jumping to this outcrossing when we need people to follow what we do know (protocols etc). SM is not just in cavaliers and each breed has their own health problems.

Let's help researchers out, support those breeders who are supporting science and following protocols.

anniemac
14th March 2012, 03:28 PM
Well then they shouldn't be bred anymore.

It's extremely selfish to keep breeding for our own benefit of having a Cavalier when these dogs are living in pain.

Do you know for fact that the genes haven't been found yet?

Yes the Dalmatian was much easier and yes it could happen all over again but if these dogs will die out its important that we learn something from it!

What's your suggestion?

I don't think it's fair on the dogs to carry on and hope this disappears because it won't.

It's time the dogs were put as a priority!

Karen,

I don't know for a fact the genes are not found but if they are then a genetic, DNA test would be extremely helpful to breeders and to people who have to pay for MRI.

What does Dr Rusbridge say? Don't breed any cavaliers. People following protocols are still selfish?

anniemac
14th March 2012, 03:34 PM
Sorry, maybe I am selfish but I love this breed and I hated seeing Ella in pain and now don't know about Elton and his CM. I support science, Dr Rusbridge, geneticist like Dr. Bell, and breeders.

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 03:48 PM
I don't know what Dr Rusbridge says and I'm not about to put words out or assume on her behalf.

I've said already it's not something that should be attempted by anyone except geneticists and specialists.

But in my opinion it is selfish to breed these dogs in to a life of pain, I will not own another unless it is another Rescue.

There are still far too many Cavaliers being bred outside of the Protocols.
Dr Rusbridge spent many years trying to get this protocol recognized and if every single person breeding a cavalier used it the hallelujah!
It will NEVER happen that way.

Meanwhile families hearts are broken and dogs are living painful lives.

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 03:52 PM
Very Well said and thought out. I agree completely. People are jumping to this outcrossing when we need people to follow what we do know (protocols etc). SM is not just in cavaliers and each breed has their own health problems.

Let's help researchers out, support those breeders who are supporting science and following protocols.

And no ones jumping to anything, it's my opinion and I'm allowed an opinion. I don't think theres any other way forward. My opinion and I'm sure that in 50 years time when there are no Cavaliers left I won't be the only one wishing more was done.
I spend my time raising money, I give alot of my own time and money. I want to feel as though I've done everything I can.
And even though I do feel that way I will still carry on with what I do. Even If it is in vain!

Autaven
14th March 2012, 03:56 PM
This is all very upsetting - but what I really want to know at this point is what can we do about it. I realise we can't force breeders and we can't make laws but how do we support the researchers as much as possible to enable more tests to be made and to introduce such things as outcrossing.

I'm only one Cavalier owner, but all I want to do is help to save these dogs and everyday I feel more and more like it's not going to happen. What exactly can we do?? It seems that we have all became very defeatist and there is clearly reason for that with how these poor dogs are living but surely we can make a difference to our breed..

honeybun
14th March 2012, 04:20 PM
Karen. Do you see outcross litters being bred under Lab conditions? Who will provide the animals? Will the researchers and neurologists rear the puppies, run them on? Who will buy the puppies? From what I read, breeding is not for the faint hearted.

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 04:35 PM
I would think so Honeybun.
Pups would be placed with veterinary nurses or other people involved.

I'm no expert I've never bred.
I don't imagine it to be like animal testing or anything like that but all breeding would be done under supervision and pups need to be placed in arms reach.

Kate H
14th March 2012, 04:55 PM
What do you outcross to?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
14th March 2012, 05:10 PM
OK,time to 'fess up.

There are a few closet current and past breeders on the forum presenting themselves as 'pet owners' that I have allowed to remain here even though I have a long standing policy of not allowing breeders except a tiny handful for reasons explained many times before.

I have let such people stay here for a while, for my own reasons but your participation and those of your supporters --who consistently post the same types of opinions that indicate you have never read any or very little of ongoing research -- has always been under regular review. Funny how you always dispute the research and the researchers which require breeders to actually DO something besides breeding their dogs underaged, dismissing scanning as several just did on the Cavaliers yahoo email list, ignoring cardiologist testing...! There is a solid body of evidence now that there are many things breeders can do. Too many dispute studies involving over 550 cavaliers to argue their personal experience with half a dozen dogs is more meaningful. :sl*p: What future does this breed have with such people and their views highlighted by the same old, same old breeders?! It would be farcical if the dogs weren't suffering, and dying at such early ages. To have anyone then suggest a skull malformation should be accepted as the 'new norm' for ANY living creature is nauseating.

Interestingly, some of the so-called pet owners here do not participate on other breeder-focused boards at all -- well, at least under their same usernames as owners of the same dogs they mention here, even though they seem so very closely aligned to, and aware of, what so many of these breeders think and say. How strange to only be a member here when there's a whole community more welcoming of your ideas only a click away (of course, I do jest a bit --mainly because I am well aware of which breeders some of these people are and that they post as themselves on those places).

But ladies, at this point, I think you would be happier going back to your breeder communities under your own names again -- the amusement some of us have had in knowing who you are, and that you were posting here, and seeing some of the revealing posts you have made and quickly deleted when you obviously realised you had given too much away and your identity might be revealed, has waned and I don't see any point in continuing to have you post (as useful as it is sometimes to be able to refute some of your totally erroneous posts and twisted interpretations of research). It gets tiring to hear your same old distortions and have to post yet again, the results from actual published, peer reviewed research. Or the revelations contained in your own club's breeding statistics such as the ones posted above by Margaret.

Some of your supporters also would obviously be happier elsewhere too.

Why do I remove people? Because 'free speech' to some means repeatedly posting these distortions which threaten the survival of the breed. I am not interested in your version of 'free speech' (though funny how the 'free speech' issue doesn't pertain on the breeder focused boards where they have instigated their own little bans :rolleyes:). And 'free speech' means too many intimidating posts to the pet owners who are here (see the Australian breeder's ignorant nonsense recently). I prefer to keep the discussion 'free' for productive, supportive discussion on health and for revealing through actual verifiable FACT all that is wrong with some of the breeder approaches right now. Without that exposure -- too many puppy buyers are still duped by the clubs and breeders.

My goal is -- with absolutely no apology to anyone -- to support breed health, research, cavalier welfare and reform of the whole breeding/show system (the goals Cavalier Matters has summarised so well in their new slogan :) ). I don't feel any obligation to have the ones who run down these goals, on this board -- you have lots and lots of alternative choices of places to post your opinions and buddy up with your friends. I set up and have run CavalierTalk with clear intentions since 2005, and I pay for it and don't ask any member to give a penny towards my running costs. In return -- I set my own rules and that includes removing people who do not share the ethos of the board.

Best of luck to those of you who won't be participating here any more. And a couple of you are on notice that I am getting really close to suggesting you spend your time over with those breeders whose misleading information you apparently believe and keep repeating -- I am getting pretty tired of seeing their views promoted here.

Karlin
14th March 2012, 05:36 PM
Let's help researchers out, support those breeders who are supporting science and following protocols.

The problem, to be honest, is that you believe far too much of what some of these people tell you. A lot of us have presented the facts many times. Facts. Yet you are still making statements that imply the majority of breeders do this or that because these people tell you this is what they do -- with little to no evidence.

On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe :rolleyes: but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.

On the other hand in other breeds such as dalmations, a SINGLE breeder has shown that health can be improved for a dire genetic condition by a simple outcross -- and the KC has recgnised a dog from that outcross pool as officially, a 'dalmation'. The KC has also in the past year opened the door to more possible outcrosses as well as bringing in dogs of unknown background in pedigree but which test clear for some conditions by allowing the pedigree offspring of such dogs to gradually be brought in to the full registration system.

The exact genes for SM have not been found but a narrow and promising genetic area has been identified as has an effect that apparently gives genetic protection so that dogs with CM do not go on to develop SM. We might well have had the MVD gene by now but BREEDERS failed to support the research to do so by giving their heart results to enable this to happen. BREEDERS chose not to support such work. Go ask them why they didn't give their results when asked -- they knew full well that this was a goal with a good chance of being realised, for research begun over 5 years ago. If research starts now, it will likely be years and years before similar results might be obtained.

Some of us who you might see as anti-breeder know a lot more about the internal politics and background of these disputes and know how many breeders present themselves as caring about health when they are mainly focused on their own breeding programmes for puppy sales/show ring wins, only publish health results that show them in a good light, fail to support significant health initiatives, withhold information... we could be miles and miles further along on knowing some of the things we don't know ... but we aren't, because of direct and indirect obstruction and deception by too many breeders, some of them the ones whose propaganda you readily believe and repeat.

You are welcome to support them all you want but I am getting tired of seeing false claims from them, posted here as if they are 'facts'. Including that canard that 'many breeds have SM' -- yes there is evidence that SOME do, and almost all in very small proportions in comparison to cavaliers. SM remains primarily a CAVALIER issue.

Margaret C
14th March 2012, 05:55 PM
This is all very upsetting - but what I really want to know at this point is what can we do about it. I realise we can't force breeders and we can't make laws but how do we support the researchers as much as possible to enable more tests to be made and to introduce such things as outcrossing.

I'm only one Cavalier owner, but all I want to do is help to save these dogs and everyday I feel more and more like it's not going to happen. What exactly can we do?? It seems that we have all became very defeatist and there is clearly reason for that with how these poor dogs are living but surely we can make a difference to our breed..

1) We tell other cavalier owners about the problem, there are too many 'couch potatoes' 'lazy' 'quirky' 'demanding' 'wimpy' 'not very friendly' cavaliers living in great discomfort that could be helped by medication, if only the owners realised what was wrong with their pet.

2) We warn puppy buyers they should only buy puppies from older properly health tested parents.

3) We help researchers by raising money and volunteering to help when they need samples from our pets.

Karlin
14th March 2012, 06:01 PM
1) We tell other cavalier owners about the problem, there are too many 'couch potatoes' 'lazy' 'quirky' 'demanding' 'wimpy' 'not very friendly' cavaliers living in great discomfort that could be helped by medication, if only the owners realised what was wrong with their pet.

2) We warn puppy buyers they should only buy puppies from older properly health tested parents.

3) We help researchers by raising money and volunteering to help when they need samples from our pets.


Yes! :D Exactly. There's SOOOO much every individual can do to change the current situation. :)

anniemac
14th March 2012, 06:12 PM
The problem, to be honest, is that you believe far too much of what some of these people tell you. A lot of us have presented the facts many times. Facts. Yet you are still making statements that imply the majority of breeders do this or that because these people tell you this is what they do -- with little to no evidence.

On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe :rolleyes: but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.

On the other hand in other breeds such as dalmations, a SINGLE breeder has shown that health can be improved for a dire genetic condition by a simple outcross -- and the KC has recgnised a dog from that outcross pool as officially, a 'dalmation'. The KC has also in the past year opened the door to more possible outcrosses as well as bringing in dogs of unknown background in pedigree but which test clear for some conditions by allowing the pedigree offspring of such dogs to gradually be brought in to the full registration system.

The exact genes for SM have not been found but a narrow and promising genetic area has been identified as has an effect that apparently gives genetic protection so that dogs with CM do not go on to develop SM. We might well have had the MVD gene by now but BREEDERS failed to support the research to do so by giving their heart results to enable this to happen. BREEDERS chose not to support such work. Go ask them why they didn't give their results when asked -- they knew full well that this was a goal with a good chance of being realised, for research begun over 5 years ago. If research starts now, it will likely be years and years before similar results might be obtained.

Some of us who you might see as anti-breeder know a lot more about the internal politics and background of these disputes and know how many breeders present themselves as caring about health when they are mainly focused on their own breeding programmes for puppy sales/show ring wins, only publish health results that show them in a good light, fail to support significant health initiatives, withhold information... we could be miles and miles further along on knowing some of the things we don't know ... but we aren't, because of direct and indirect obstruction and deception by too many breeders, some of them the ones whose propaganda you readily believe and repeat.

You are welcome to support them all you want but I am getting tired of seeing false claims from them, posted here as if they are 'facts'. Including that canard that 'many breeds have SM' -- yes there is evidence that SOME do, and almost all in very small proportions in comparison to cavaliers. SM remains primarily a CAVALIER issue.

Sorry Karlin. I admit I am niave (can't spell). SM is a main cavalier problem but I would hope outcrossing the same things would look into etc.

Thats wonderful they found the area for the genes. All of it is over my head but i dont want to hurt anyone. I just want to know what's wrong with Elton etc.

Margaret C
14th March 2012, 06:19 PM
On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe :rolleyes: but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.



A trial outcrossing is certainly being talked about. I believe that the idea is to breed a cavalier to another spaniel breed that does not have CM and then back-cross any puppies that have not inherited CM to Cavaliers.

I suppose it is very much the same as was done with Dalmations.

Margaret C
14th March 2012, 06:28 PM
Yes! :D Exactly. There's SOOOO much every individual can do to change the current situation. :)

And I forgot to add that those, like me, who know how to read the Breed Record Supplement will continue to publicly criticise those committee members and health representatives who do not follow their own clubs' health breeding guidelines.

Karlin
14th March 2012, 07:09 PM
And I forgot to add that those, like me, who know how to read the Breed Record Supplement will continue to publicly criticise those committee members and health representatives who do not follow their own clubs' health breeding guidelines.

Thanks for doing so.

A major ethical issue for breeders remains that most of them receive the supplement, know how to read it, see the results and are perfectly aware of their friends, committee members and so called 'health reps' that are ignoring health and breeding guidelines and doing whatever they want when they breed -- often at the same time that publicly they spout off about the importance of health and how much work breeders are doing and they are all unfairly 'tarred with the same brush' of the so-called 'bad' breeders, tell puppy buyers never to buy from breeders breeding outside guidelines/doing no testing -- and yet the say NOTHING, put no pressure on these two-faced, lying breeders and committee members, re-elect them to committees, and happily observe the well known code of breeder silence about health issues.

And thus do the dogs continue to suffer as problems get worse.

Autaven
14th March 2012, 09:04 PM
Well if you need any volunteers or help in the future count me in :)

Karen and Ruby
14th March 2012, 09:13 PM
Well if you need any volunteers or help in the future count me in :)

We need people all over the UK to spread the word- have you joined the Companion Club??

K x

Autaven
14th March 2012, 09:47 PM
I'm not a member at the moment but paid on Monday so I'll certainly join then. Wearing my SM Awareness bands everywhere I go too! Will need to keep my eyes peeled for fundraising opportunities. Would really like to be actively involved.

Karlin
14th March 2012, 10:15 PM
Further to focusing on what can be done -- we have many many threads on these issues and also have established Rupert's Fund to which so many here have donated, and Cavalier Matters has a fund also widely supported here which helps RF and several other initiatives such as rescue and Margaret's Cavalier Collection Scheme.

I have said it many times and will say it again: if tomorrow, NOBODY would buy a cavalier that didn't come from health tested parents (MRIs, Cardiologist tests, hip scores etc), from a breeder that follows the MVD and SM breeding protocols, even puppy farmers would either start testing, or get out of breeding this breed as there would be NO MARKET. Pet buyers have a huge role and just as much responsibility as any breeder -- knowingly supporting non testing breeders is the same as being a non-testing breeder or a puppy farmer. You are supporting someone exploiting the breed for THIER profit not someone supporting the breed.

Do not give a financial lifeline to breeders who don;t test and follow protocols. Simple as that. We need to make sure everyone we know interested in a cavalier does their research, knows what to ask of breeders and what certs to see, and then selects the health focused breeders. If everyone asked, and then told the non testing breeders, 'thanks but no thanks', what a difference that would make.