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View Full Version : How many Cavs on here have SM



silki
29th June 2012, 03:43 PM
Just wondered if we could start a Poll ?

Sabby
29th June 2012, 05:31 PM
Just wondered if we could start a Poll ?

Just go to the MVD & SM section and have a good read. Don't want to put you of buying a Cavalier but would like to make double sure you are going to get a puppy from a Proper health testing breeder. (Just been reading your other post about finding a breeder) even if you have to wait a while ( what most people don't want and they get fed up waiting) for a puppy reading the SM & MVD section hopefully will convince you to wait if you have to.

I have got 3 Cavaliers one has SM , MVD, Luxating Patella and degenerated discs. My other one has SM.

Margaret C
29th June 2012, 07:16 PM
Just wondered if we could start a Poll ?

We could have a poll but it would not mean a lot as it would all depend on who is around to read the thread and whether they wanted to post about their SM dogs.

If you are trying to get an idea as to how widespread this is in the breed take a look at Rod Russell's website http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm
You will see that in a June 2011 study of 555 cavaliers without any symptoms of syringomyelia, 25% of the one year old dogs had SM and 70% of the dogs aged 6 years and older had SM.

DZee
29th June 2012, 09:04 PM
Can I just say something here? I sympathize greatly w/ all of those on the forum that have Cavaliers w/ health problems.
But ( and I may be wrong).. I think what you really want to know SILKI is buying a Cavalier pup worth all the health risks??
Just my humble opinion ( and I would hope most of us on here would say as well ) the answer is ...> yes.
We love this breed or we wouldn't be here talking about it. As much as the statistics state...there are always be exception. A diagnosis of MVD is not necessarily a death sentence. ( I have Mitral valve prolapse myself!!)
Many dogs live long lives w/ a heart murmur and many do not need medication.
As far as SM....I am no expert. But I know w/ anything..there are various degrees of severity. Some Cav's. may have mild cases all their lives....some not.
AND....and I may get shot down for saying this...but whether you spend a TON of money on what you "think" is a reputable breeder..there are still "no" guarantees. Get Pet insurance..or put $ away just to be wise ( in case you DO run into health problems). I would say that about ANY breed though.
Don't dwell on the negatives my theory. You search your heart. Do you want a Cavalier? Then buy a cavalier.
You won't regret a minute of it .
These little bundles of fur have fantastic temperments. Their personalities are so unbelieveably sweet you will fall in love immediately.
We have owned many dogs throughout the years. Various breeds. Sadly..almost all have passed away from cancer.
As heartbreaking as it is to lose a pet we love...has that deterred me from wanting to own another dog?..not at all.
We LOVE the time we have w/ them. It is no different than us as humans. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow.
I guess I am saying...we deal w/ risks no matter what.
Ok..that's my 2 cents worth. ~ hugs~

Kate H
29th June 2012, 09:19 PM
The poll isn't going to be very accurate - I have 2 dogs with SM but wasn't allowed to vote twice!

No dog of any breed or none comes with a health or lifetime guarantee. You can get a tough mongrel who has enough terrier in it to dig under the fence and get run over. Many breeds die younger than they should of cancer - just like many humans. You can only do your best to minimise the risks you know about - health checks for Cavaliers, and wire netting sunk into the ground below the fence for that mongrel terrier!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

DZee
29th June 2012, 09:35 PM
The poll isn't going to be very accurate - I have 2 dogs with SM but wasn't allowed to vote twice!

No dog of any breed or none comes with a health or lifetime guarantee. You can get a tough mongrel who has enough terrier in it to dig under the fence and get run over. Many breeds die younger than they should of cancer - just like many humans. You can only do your best to minimise the risks you know about - health checks for Cavaliers, and wire netting sunk into the ground below the fence for that mongrel terrier!

Kate, Oliver and Aled


:xctly:...Thank you Kate !! :thnx:

ashleighelizabeth
29th June 2012, 09:48 PM
I also think the results could be skewed depending on the dog's age. Sonny currently hasn't been diagnosed with SM, but he is only 1. I truly hope he never faces this devastating disease, but the odds are not in his favor. :(

With that being said, I wouldn't trade Sonny for any other dog. He is the sweetest, smartest, funniest, most loyal dog ever! I recommend getting health insurance if you do get a Cavalier or any dog for that matter that way you can be prepared to take care of your furry friend no matter what comes up. :)

DZee
30th June 2012, 01:49 AM
I also think the results could be skewed depending on the dog's age. Sonny currently hasn't been diagnosed with SM, but he is only 1. I truly hope he never faces this devastating disease, but the odds are not in his favor. :(

With that being said, I wouldn't trade Sonny for any other dog. He is the sweetest, smartest, funniest, most loyal dog ever! I recommend getting health insurance if you do get a Cavalier or any dog for that matter that way you can be prepared to take care of your furry friend no matter what comes up. :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii84/dannyboobear/Buttons%20Banners/like.png

MomObvious
30th June 2012, 02:37 AM
When I first joined CT I was awaiting a cavalier puppy from what I thought was a good breeder......she did MVD, heart test with a specialist, eyes, dips etc....her breeding stock. She allowed me to come to her home to meet her and dogs. She really did home raise these cavaliers and yes they are part of her family and she loves them dearly. In fact, I like her so much I still chat with her all the time. However, I joined here and was introduced to SM, breeding protocols set up by true professionals backed by real science and of I met a few owners dealing with an effected beloved dog. I was scared to death. It turned out great for me, my adopting from one of "my" breeders puppies fell thur......long story but the breeder ended up keeping the only girl from the litter. Anyway she gave me to option of getting my deposit back or waiting until another litter. I opted for my deposit back....at the time I just wanted to learn as much as I could about cavalier health problems.

Then I called "my" breeder and had a very polite but very frank conservation with her. She insisted none of her dogs (that she knew of) had SM. I gave her the science that there was know what that was true. I also asked her if she bred her dogs before 2.5 years old, she admitted she wished she could do more to ensure the health of her breeding stock....I was very grateful for her honesty. She told me then what I already knew, breed standards, temperament and making breeding dogs profitable were her goals. I was not angry with her and since then she no longer states her lines are "SM free" she is also slowly having her older breeding (over 2.5 yrs) scanned, I hope that's true.

So using the MVD and SM breeding protocols, I continued my search for a breeder....there are VERY few in the US but they are there.....I have found 4 in the US. I think breeders doing anything else are a BIG BIG part of this breeds problems. I will not cannot give my money to them PERIOD!! I then turned to rescue groups, either way I wanted a cavalier risks and all. I contacted "no kill" shelters all over the eastern US. If I purchase a puppy yes I will insist on one bred to protocols PERIOD but there are cavaliers out there that need forever homes today. I ended up getting a puppy for a shelter in a few states away. I was EXTREMELY lucky to get a puppy born at the shelter. We believe my Fletcher's half dead pregnant mother was left in the middle of the night at the shelter (its in Amish puppy area). I do not know anything about the health of Fletcher's mother other than she was about 3 and did not have a heart murmur yet. They believe she had been bred several times already. At first they were not sure the puppies where completely cavalier. I knew the risks, bought a good insurance policy and am preying he remains healths as long as possible. For me, so far its worth the risk, however I may one day change my mind. PLUS my adoption fee helps this group save more dogs....not product more very possibly unhealthy dogs.

I think maybe SILKI is just in love with cavaliers, and that's great HOWEVER I do not think he completely understand the danger cavalier's face....if major changes are not done with the breeding practices of cavalier there will BE no more cavaliers in the world....and that's not 100 years from now. ALL cavaliers will suffer from SM and MVD at younger ages....this is a very real problem. I personally believe all cavalier owners should be cavalier advocates. Again just my opinion.

SIKLI- do more research a lot more research..... go to youtube and watch videos of cavalier's suffering from SM its real and DOES effect every line of cavalier's known to man today.

If you choose, go for a rescue however, leaving cavalier home alone all day won't do, maybe you need to rethink this whole thing.


Just my opinion, take from it what you choose.

Melissa

Sabby
30th June 2012, 03:32 PM
Just to say I used to greatly sympathize with all the Cavalier Owners on here with SM affected dogs and NO I wouldn’t trade my three for anything. Would I have another Cavalier? I don’t think I could stand the heartache looking at my dog every day thinking are these signs of SM are they getting worse. Yes I used to sympathize but I had no idea how it changes your life. If I can’t find anybody to be there to give tablets at the right time I have to be home to give these tablets I can’t just say what the hell I am out I come back when it suits me . I have to be up between 4 and 5 am to give Ebony’s first tablet. When the air pressure goes up and down I am up all night with Ebony as she won’t settle. Yes my dogs have still got a very good quality of life and I have good pet insurance. But no way would I ever put money into a pocket of a none testing Breeder. This Breed deserves so much better.

DZee
30th June 2012, 04:33 PM
Just to say I used to greatly sympathize with all the Cavalier Owners on here with SM affected dogs and NO I wouldn’t trade my three for anything. Would I have another Cavalier? I don’t think I could stand the heartache looking at my dog every day thinking are these signs of SM are they getting worse. Yes I used to sympathize but I had no idea how it changes your life. If I can’t find anybody to be there to give tablets at the right time I have to be home to give these tablets I can’t just say what the hell I am out I come back when it suits me . I have to be up between 4 and 5 am to give Ebony’s first tablet. When the air pressure goes up and down I am up all night with Ebony as she won’t settle. Yes my dogs have still got a very good quality of life and I have good pet insurance. But no way would I ever put money into a pocket of a none testing Breeder. This Breed deserves so much better.

Awe Sabby.... Perhaps I need to re-phrase what I said in my previous comments. I don't know how to say it other than I am so sorry that "you" & so many others on this forum deal w/ pups with this disease. You are right..this breed does deserve much better.
Here in the U.S... I do not think the testing is done to the extent it should be. I have to be honest...I was not aware of all of these health risks..and I felt I did research before we bought our Wrigley. We "think" he came from a reputable breeder
( I still talk w/ her quite frequently actually). And I have all his health clearances & copies of his parents clearances
( he has a good blood-line) but doesn't sound from all I have been reading..that necessarily is enough.
I am only hoping & praying that our Wrigley will be the exception rather than the norm. regarding all this.
I want to be wise though..and keep him tested...and will deal with whatever comes.
I hope I didn't offend anyone..as I only meant that no matter what..I am sure none of us would trade them for anything.

Sabby
30th June 2012, 07:38 PM
Awe Sabby.... Perhaps I need to re-phrase what I said in my previous comments. I don't know how to say it other than I am so sorry that "you" & so many others on this forum deal w/ pups with this disease. You are right..this breed does deserve much better.
Here in the U.S... I do not think the testing is done to the extent it should be. I have to be honest...I was not aware of all of these health risks..and I felt I did research before we bought our Wrigley. We "think" he came from a reputable breeder
( I still talk w/ her quite frequently actually). And I have all his health clearances & copies of his parents clearances
( he has a good blood-line) but doesn't sound from all I have been reading..that necessarily is enough.
I am only hoping & praying that our Wrigley will be the exception rather than the norm. regarding all this.
I want to be wise though..and keep him tested...and will deal with whatever comes.
I hope I didn't offend anyone..as I only meant that no matter what..I am sure none of us would trade them for anything.

Diane – I don’t think you offended anybody. Not me anyway.
People like to point out that if your dog gets diagnosed it’s not a death sentence and they can live great active lives, and that is very true and I even say that to distraught owners BUT it does change your life and maybe I love my dogs to much but I think about it a lot and it breaks my heart all the time when I think that most likely they won’t have a life expectancy like they should have.

And No I woudn't trade them for the world I am glad I have them in my life.

Karlin
30th June 2012, 08:23 PM
Three out of the five cavaliers I have owned have SM.

Two have or had MVD (at last test) -- one died from this condition, and it was a difficult and exhausting illness to deal with for both dog and for me.

SM is a challenge for any owner as even a 'mild' case can swiftly become a serious case -- and you simply never know what will happen. Most cases progress to some degree. SM is costly to diagnose and manage. I think many who think these are illnesses that can be easily managed find the reality is often very different if they end up with a dog diagnosed with either condition.

Those are realities anyone considering the breed needs to carefully digest. For some, the breed is still worth it. For others, the risk is too high. For many of us who have dogs with these conditions, we question if we will ever have this breed again. Many of us decide to, but anyone who has been through these illnesses generally searches far and wide for a health focused, testing breeder as we know the heartbreak that can come with an ill dog, especially when often, these are young dogs.

I do not think it is ever acceptable to justify going to a breeder who cares so little for the breed that they do not properly test --which means every puppy they breed has a far higher likelihood of having these serious illnesses or passing them on to future offspring and thus affects the entire future of the breed, not just the dogs they selfishly breed for personal reward (income or trophies). The percentage of puppies that scan with SM is considerably lower when both parents are scanned and both or one are A graded dogs. There are some previous threads about how the percentages work out but the difference is 75% or more of the puppies in a litter scanning with SM when parent dogs are unscanned or D or F grade, vs 0-25% when parents are A graded dogs.

Simply because dogs can have varying degrees of a serious illness that is endemic in the breed -- as is the case with SM and MVD -- does not mean dogs, even with mild cases, do not lead compromised lives and that owners do not struggle with the illness and end up living with background worry that makes it hard to enjoy their dog. The goal must be to reduce and perhaps someday eliminate these problems that are destroying our breed, at too young an age. Syringomelia is considered one of the most painful conditions in humans and there is every sign that dogs cover their pain and that owners underestimate it in affected dogs (see the new paper out this week, posted by Rod earlier today). Humans get illnesses for a wide range of reasons, but cavaliers get these illnesses because humans continue to breed them into their dogs. Both diseases could be greatly curtailed IF breeders tested properly and IF they used breeding protocols for health.

Going with a cheaper breeder and just buying insurance to compensate cannot be an ethical approach to puppy buying either -- as it just continues to support the very people who contribute most to the serious health issues in the breed. But buying insurance is a must for most owners as either of these conditions can get very expensive.

Researchers have yet to find any line that is not affected by CM/SM or MVD. Any breeder who promotes their lines as clear is either poorly informed about SM (and thus to be avoided) or deliberately misleading (ditto).

The breed is a wonderful breed, but with many serious challenges. Every puppy buyer can make a big step in helping ensure the breed does have a future -- and right now, that is not clear at all -- by supporting testing, health-focused breeders who know the breed. :) Or alternatively, support rescue instead and home a rescue dog. :)

silki
2nd July 2012, 01:08 PM
Thanks for all the info, anyone that can recommend a good breeder that is testing in the UK please PM me

Kate H
2nd July 2012, 10:41 PM
The person to contact is Margaret C, who keeps a list of breeders who do health checks and breed for health. She would probably know anyone who has a litter now or coming soon.

Kate, Oliver and Aled