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Super Princess
3rd November 2012, 03:43 AM
was on pinterest and saw this.

[link removed by admin -- this breeder is notorious]

you can see the link to hte website..there are more pics towards the end of the link.
so unique.

sunshinekisses
3rd November 2012, 03:59 AM
She's adorable. I have to wonder though if her hearing is good? Blues eyes sometimes comes with a deaf gene.

Super Princess
3rd November 2012, 04:15 AM
it would be interesting to know.
we are 99.34 % sure oliver was deaf too...he was obviously just normal.

my personal prefrence is a pup with a lot of colour..but man oh man that one is CUTE!

Karlin
3rd November 2012, 12:15 PM
I think that is likely photoshopped, for a start. Have never seen blue eyes that intense in any breed that normally can produce blue eye colour. Don;t believe everything that's posted on the internet! :lol:

More seriously -- overall, there's definitely some genetic issue there in colouring -- neither the colouring nor eye-colour is normal. I'd wonder whether the dog is pure cavalier or if some breed that can get blue eyes -- some of the herding dogs and there are some smaller ones that could also introduce that dominant white. I'd geuss something has been crossed in at some point.

There are at times, genetic health issues linked to blue eye colour as well as to certain coat colours like white and merle (except in breeds where white is the norm). I'd hope a dog like this would be neutered. Unfortunately such abnormal dogs are often then bred for by crappy breeders who then charge huge amounts for puppies that are not 'more valuable' but likely to be 'more at risk of health issues'. :(

This is a useful dicussion:

http://mysmelly.com/content/dogs/breeds-of-dogs-with-blue-eyes.htm

I'd really think there's something like collie or Australian heeler bred in to such a dog.

You hope they are responsible and instead will not be crossing closely related dogs to go for such a cosmetic result that might affect health.

Karlin
3rd November 2012, 12:28 PM
Followed that link and saw who the breeder is -- someone to avoid AT ALL COSTS and I have therefore removed the link as I will not risk having anyone seriously consider a purchase from that person. Ask any reputable breeder about that person anywhere in the cavalier world and prepare for a long list of expletives about that :swear: creature.

All I can say is: I fully stand by my concerns in the previous post about being wary when such dogs are featured on someone's website. :x

And as for breeder websites: this one from the start is full of red flags even on first reading. Please never, ever take at face value what breeders say on their websites especially if they have no clear breed club affiliation or involvement (which isn't at all an endorsement but can be a pretty basic ay of eliminating many people from basic consideration, with some rare exceptions). Many people are very good at making it look like they do the right thing when they do not. Buyers should ALWAYS aks hard questions of every breeder (use our puppy buyer guideline links on the homepage), ask to see (real!) certificates, discuss their health programme and ask for evidence of it, and NEVER use as a reference the testimonials posted by breeders on their website (in my experience most who post testimonials are the ones to avoid) or believe they do one jot toards healthful breeding without confirmation by a breeder who is knowledgeable and independent. ALWAYS look for a reputable breeder who is independent and well known to be health focused to get advice on a given breeder-- in the US for example I would email Laura Lang or Anne Eckersley, in the UK, Margaret Carter or a range of current and former breeders she can recommend; in Canada, Pat Barrington (there are others too in these regions; these are just quick top-of-the-head names) to ask whether to work with a given breeder. Give them the link to a breeder's website.

They can tell you in seconds whether the breeder gets a green light or the air raid sirens. This time it's all air raid sirens. :yikes

This is a good guide to decoding breeder websites (that breeder's website hit so many of these red flag items that it sounded like a casino jackpot... :rolleyes:):

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?25990-Decoding-breeder-websites

And note that the author, a reputable breeder of another breed, says THIS:


Rare Colors/Rare Coats – A breeder intentionally breeding undesired traits is not breeding ethically. Yes, sometimes breeders will get something not in standard; it just happens, no matter how well a breeder plans, genetics are genetics recessive genes can crop up. Fuzzy Mastiffs, black and tan Labradors, dilute Shelties, white Dobermans, etc can all crop up from time to time. However, a good breeder will not treat them as something rare and special nor will they ask a significantly more amount of money for one. If you see catchwords such as "rare" raise that red flag.

karen baker
3rd November 2012, 08:50 PM
Thank god, i,am so glad to hear you removed that link!!!!! I only got to read the first line, No! No! No! When are people going to stop interfering with the genetics and breeding of our dogs, its just not right, i was quite disgusted, this does not look good, and cavaliers were bred to have brown eyes like most dogs, except for the odd breed. It disturbs me a lot that this goes on Karen,Ruby, and Sadie x

Super Princess
4th November 2012, 12:40 AM
I specificly didn't link to her website as to avoid any of that, I linked to pintrest because i know her link its not aloud on the board i know. i am not sure how to post images other then links or i woulda done that instead. :)
I would like to say though.. Karlin, you have done an AMAZING job educating most of the people on here. the information you have provided as to what to look for and what to avoid is a fantastic resource and im sure has helped MANY who currently and past have romed these fourms. so THANKYOU for that.

. I have no idea what kinda breeder she is because i didnt take a look around her site. I have no interest to. I have found a fantastic breeder with the help of many members here on the board. and im quite happy.
The only thing i was interested in viewing were the photos of that puppy. (in quick glance at that one specific page..the advertizing of specific puppie litters brings red flags ..any of the breeders i contacted dont even have websites..and if htey do they dont mention if they have puppies avaliable or not. they dont need to.

however..it did say shes not breeding THAT dog, that it is mismarked..or unique. it is also NOT for sale..not for a marked up price..not for ANY price. that one is staying with her.

...its not to breed standards..and no breeder or shower would touch her.. however i still think shes cute. i think its worth shareing on a cavalier board, weather shes to standard or not.. Its cavalier topic and worth a discussion if nothing else.
I dont belive it to be photoshopped. weather there is somethign other then cavalier somewhere down the lines somewhere..or its a rare gene defect..
if a child is born with a abnormality is it to be cursed out?

sorry for typos..i have a fat 16 year old cat asleep on one arm ;)

Furrfoot
4th November 2012, 01:16 AM
I got to reading around about the blue eyed Cavs, and it seems that there is a recessive gene component that shows up very rarely in Cavaliers (like an albino gene shows up in any species). There were a few google images, etc. with Cavs with one or 2 blue eyes. I imagine the bright blue eyes in the baby pic is probably the bright blue of a baby dog (or cat), that lightens up as they age. I think she's interesting, too. But I happen to like the Cardigan Corgis with the long nonshow coats, and the Chinese Cresteds that aren't naked, and brought home the weird/"deformed" fancy goldfish from the pet store just because they were different from the rest, and my 5 legged African Clawed Frog is my favorite one of the bunch too (her personality is so funny!) too, so...lol. As for breeding for non-show/unhealthy traits- no. But to come across a unique recessive trait that happens to pop up occasionally, I think it's interesting.

Easy read link about dog eye coloring: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/eyes.html

Super Princess
4th November 2012, 01:28 AM
ive searched a million pictures this year..some on facebook some on google..some on pinrest or tumblr.
and ive seen a few blue eyes. theyre out there. rare..but theyre there.

And i think its a topic like this..that brings forth the discussion..the info that its a recessifve gene component is interesting. Cause i din't know that.. and maybe a few others didn't either.
thats what the site was saying..she had bright blue eyes when she was a pup..it ligtened to a crystal blue as she grew older.

Awe you have a frog? I love frogs. Id love to see a pic of her! :D they scare me..but i love them (haha if that makes sence) i have a bog down by my house..and took my camera down every day for weeks before i found one later into the night.. took a few pics..then it moved and i jumped ..end of that for me :D

Furrfoot
4th November 2012, 05:54 AM
Here ya go! :) We have 3 frogs now- we ended up with a bunch of tadpoles (we were only supposed to have 2!) and rehomed the others. Here's a link to the pics (I posted in the other pets section ;) ): http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?42464-African-Clawed-Frog-Pics&p=425622#post425622

Karlin
4th November 2012, 12:56 PM
The discussion on thetopic of blue eyes is fine and has been interesting! :) There are also rare 'chocolate' cavaliers too, which have a brown shaded coat rather than black or blenheim colouring. As the article I quoted says, rare colours of coat etc can pop up quite normally. The thing to beware of is people trying to sell such animals at a higher price or claiming they are somehow more valuable than other animals. For example a couple of poor quality cavalier breeders try to put a premium price on black cavaliers -- obtained either through crossbreeding in the past (most likely) or perhaps a dog that appeared with that colouring that they have then interbred far too closely with offspring. :(

Actually cavalier coat colours were only artificially fixed by the UK Kennel Club back around the middle of the last century when cavaliers were accepted as a formal breed. There were all black, and black and white cavaliers for example. There's a whole argument about whether fixing appearance in this way contributes to the decline of breeds and reduces genetic diversity (very low in almost all pedigree dogs, which mostly would never survive as a distinct breed in the wild as diversity is below the level at which a species would survive). And I am sympathetic to that argument and the silliness and even cruelty of some breed standards. For example in some regions a colour is accepted in th standard and in others it is not (eg white schnauzers, fine in Europe, not accepted in US). The problem though is that in the real world, anyone breeding alternative coat colours or mixes deliberately is trying to sell puppies on false pretenses of 'value' and is almost never going to have a clue about genetics or health and won;t have started with tested, healthy individuals and won't be doing the proper testing or following breeding protocols -- I've yet to see breeders who do any of these things including ones who sell so-called healthier designer crossbreeds 9they have no background on their breeding stock; they breed cavaliers below 2.5 years, they rarely do testing especially MRIs).

The original link even though not it wasn't directly to that cretin's own website clearly showed the breeder's website address so for that reason I removed the link. I would also do this if people post images of their expected puppy if it goes to, say, Photobucket but the image has the breeder's kennel name printed on it. :thmbsup:

The blue eyes in the pic, are I feel, definitely photoshopped to match the colour in the kennel name on the image. I've seen lots and lots of puppy and kitten blue eyes and puppy eyes just are not that blue and not by that age (that's not a really young puppy). There are actually other blue eyed cavaliers out on the web (sadly that some people want to breed from even though blue eyes are usually a one-off) and you can see that even as puppies they have typical blue dog eyes, nothing that intense. Very easy to highlight the blue using online picture editors. :lol:

Personally I found it really depressing to see that breeder's site. :( I had not realised they were still breeding on what seems an industrial scale, offering cavaliers of all four colours, all the time. :x I fervently hope there is a special circle of hell reserved for people like this.

MomObvious
4th November 2012, 02:36 PM
Personally I found it really depressing to see that breeder's site. :( I had not realised they were still breeding on what seems an industrial scale, offering cavaliers of all four colours, all the time. :x I fervently hope there is a special circle of hell reserved for people like this.[/QUOTE]


Boy, do I agree. Mr. Monster loves to look at pictures of cavaliers. So I google images of them, he points to them and asks me what is his name and whatever.... I try not to click in any because I know its going to take me to a website where blood pressure is gonna rise by the first page I see. The last few time Mr. Monster has asked to see "Fletcher doggies" I have just gone to the gallery here instead.

Furrfoot
4th November 2012, 07:26 PM
It's entirely possible and most likely probable, that they are photoshopped, but we did have a harlequin calico (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=yNl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&spell=1&q=harlequin&sa=X&ei=CrGWUP2XIIba8wST14GgBw&ved=0CB4QBSgA&biw=1138&bih=540) kitten (half ragdoll) who had intense blue eyes until she was about 4 months old, then puberty kicked in and they turned a hazel gold/green. Oh well, she was still beautiful ;) .
Doesn't look like I have any kitten pics in my Photobucket :( . But I will share this one (she loved our dogs):

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j213/boxart/matandmegsleepingforcontestbette-1.jpg

Super Princess
4th November 2012, 08:32 PM
ahh i posted from my bed this morning (iphone) and it didnt post lol. damnit! what did i say..hmm.

I LOVE cavaliers..the way they are..but i always wondered why the 4 specific colours? why the markings where they shoudl be ..and why so strict...dose aiming for those markings smallen the gene pool?
I know oliver...his line on his forhead was so small that he was 'undesirable.' and my maybe maggie (the pup i think will be maggie) is 'unshowable' because she has too much brown farther down her face. both qualities i kinda liked.
so...maybe they do..but i havnt seen it.. to get the certian markings where they should be do they only breed certian colours together? ive never seen a tri and a ruby or a blenhiem and a black and tan.

I still havn't taken a look at the website..but trust you guys's knowledge. is there a way we could report her? or just nothing anyone can do. I have come to know olivers breeder isnt' a good breeder. shes frowned upon in our provinces breeding club...shes acutally not a member..but I talked to two seperate breeders who breeders who brought it up to me.
From what ive seen of this ladys website(which is reallly just hte pup page) besides number of litters she has on her site(alarming) besides the fact shes advetizing each individaul pup (also alarming..any breeder ive ever talked to has never had to do this) ...(acutally while searhing the net..i found an advt from olivers breeder on craigslist :( )
um the thing that ..raises my alarms is the blood on the foot of the mama. I get she just gave birth..but clean up your dog before you start taking and posting pictures :(

there should be someone breeders have to answer to.

Karlin
5th November 2012, 12:03 AM
Well, don't forget that the vast majority of pedigree dogs go to pet homes, not the show ring so cosmetic issues like marking are really meaningless in that context. :D Few, if any, from a given litter are potential show quality or worth keeping in a breeding programme for a show breeder. Cosmetic issues really have nothing to do with the quality of a puppy and they are not undesireable in any way at all or considered defective per se -- they simply don't fit show standards and this ONLY matters for a show dog -- so who cares? :) Almost none of us who own cavaliers got them to show them. And actually, cosmetic elements like markings -- whether a dog has a narrow blaze for example, or is more heavily black for a tri than broken up with white, are absolutely, the least important element of whether a dog shows well and there are many dogs that would be considered mismarked that do very well before judges. There are many more important elements that are considered, and markings actually may not matter at all. :) There has to be some sort of breed standard though for people to show dogs and for a breed to have a generally consistent look.

I'm really talking above, more about how entire colour combinations for breeds are fixed in the standards when actually there was once more variation. But that fades into little importance (except when unscrupulous breeders try to sell such differences as a costly rarity) compared to breed standards that set or accept physical features that risk, or worse, cause pain and discomfort and a compromised life to the dog. Sadly there are an awful lot of examples of those across different breeds. Some features that possibly (I'd say, probably!) need to go in cavaliers are smaller size dogs, the short nose and huge eyes and perhaps certain skull shapes. Pressure from Pedigree Dogs exposed caused the Kennel Club in the UK to introduce some changes and for vets to approve the dogs before they are given top awards at shows now, for some specified breeds. But cavaliers were not included on the list.

The fact that so many pedigree breeds have health issues which do not show on a basic vet check, as with cavaliers, has many arguing that more needs to be done and that good health test results should be part of the consideration for many breeds, in order for them to win championships.

There is a strong argument in the UK now to create an oversight body for dog breeding for ANYONE that breeds, as the Kennel Club has not done much over the years to change a certain culture and also only could (but doesn't) set enforceable standards for breeders. The KC will say they cannot enforce anything but simply withholding KC registration for puppies would be a pretty strong incentive for many breeders. There has been an investigative body called the Dog Advisory Council (again, a direct result of Pedigree Dogs Exposed) and there is now a push to have that Council become a statutory body to oversee all dog breeding, with legal powers.

Super Princess
5th November 2012, 12:41 AM
Few, if any, from a given litter are potential show quality or worth keeping in a breeding programme for a show breeder.
Interesting you should mention this, for I have been very quiet about thus(never know who's watching) but I have told very few people on here. My topic "they're here". The entire litter was show quality and although imwas first on the list, have found show /breeder homes.
My luck hey?
she IS a really good breeder, we met her, saw her home, she scored big time with me and dad and the bc club. She is small time breeder with 5 dogs, a litter or two a year, but happened to breed her 2nd dog 3 weeks later. And the showers/breeders are not interested in this litter.

Anyways. I know nothing about showing, and have been told by a few breeders markings are the least important factor, but from what I've seen it do play a part. Sure their body's have to be correct (bites and such) such as the 1st litter, they hadn't finished growing and already had show homes. Because they all were beautifully marked.
Then at 1 week old she could tell"maybe Maggie' would be a pet home dog.

I agree though. Lots of issues with breeds and dogs don't show on regular checkups. We had a Delmation when we were kids, healthy, full of way too much energy for me ahha, interesting memories with that guy. Dragging people down the street behind him.
But he had a mean streak. He bit twice, breaking skin because someone would enter a room he was in. Why I say it's nit always the owners, but the breed when that argument comes up. We treated him very well.
But that would never come up on a check up. on a color note there was a brown spotted pup in his litter. She was chosen before my parents chose.

I think I'm rambling. Lol

Karlin
5th November 2012, 01:03 AM
Well, just be sure take all that with a grain of salt. :) It is very hard for anyone, no matter the expertise, to judge whether a dog is show quality as a young puppy -- really it is hard to begin to tell til the puppy is at least 6 months or so (that is when you often find breeders have older puppies to rehome as they realise they won't make it for showing). Another red flag for a breeder is when they are selling little puppies on websites as 'show quality' -- you cannot tell this from an 8 week old puppy. A lot of dogs 'go wrong' in show terms, as they get up to a year old and it's impossible to predict that when they are just weeks old. I doubt all the litter will end up being shown but lovely that she had such a nice prospective litter. It isn;t even all about conformation -- a lot is personality in the ring. My lovely, late Lucy was a failed show dog that became a breeding dog instead. She just didn't like the ring.

Breeders though have to take a guess -- they can't wait til the dog is 6 or 12 months old to sell them or for others to decide to buy in a potential show dog. They will have weighed up different elements but it is all a guess. I can guarantee markings will not have been the reason they chose the puppies though! :) Laura Lang used to have a good page showing puppies and conformation elements -- not sure if it is there any more.

Every show breeder I have ever talked to says markings are not really a major element -- they are the icing on the cake on an otherwise excellent dog really. Other elements of conformation are more critical.

With your dalmation -- I'd say that sounds like a temperament issue that may have been the individual dog, or the line. They are not a breed known for biting at all.

anniemac
5th November 2012, 09:50 PM
I googled and found the website and I agree that I do think there may have been some photoshop involved. The eye color was light blue in some pictures and darker in others.

I did find this interesting in my google search. There was a thread on this forum that was about blue eyes. I can't post link from phone. Someone said they had a rescue with one blue eye. They homed the cavalier to someone who also had one blue eye so they thought it was fate. I thought that was a sweet rescue story.