PDA

View Full Version : Age of parents when they start breeding



Emcannon
14th February 2013, 09:48 PM
I feel like I may have found a little guy I want to make mine! He is almost 6 months old and from a breeder not too far from my home. I'm curious what views are on the ages breeders start breeding their dogs-- I am pretty sure I read on the cavalierhealth.org website that they should be at least two. This little guys mom was born in December of 2007 and had her first litter 9/29/10 so she's good but the dad was born in June of 2008 and had his first litter 3/31/10. Should I be concerned that he was not yet 2? Everything else in this fellas line is great, even some MRI testing done as his grandparents are all from either the UK or Germany.

RodRussell
14th February 2013, 11:21 PM
... I am pretty sure I read on the cavalierhealth.org website that they should be at least two. ... Should I be concerned that he was not yet 2? Everything else in this fellas line is great, even some MRI testing done as his grandparents are all from either the UK or Germany.

No where on http://cavalierhealth.org does it say that it is okay to start breeding any cavalier King Charles spaniel as early as age 2.0 years.

I would be concerned that the male was not 3.0 years of age and had not had his heart tested for MVD at 2.5 years or older and had not had his brain and upper spinal column MRI'd at 3.0 years. As long as cavalier buyers keep buying puppies bred from under-aged sires and dams, those breeders will keep ignoring those essential breeding protocols.

MomObvious
15th February 2013, 03:58 AM
Sorry I think you need to keep looking. Its great that there is some MRI's done on grandparents but what about the parents???? And at what age were the MRI's done on the grandparents? What were the results? How old are grandparents now? Are they still heart clear too? The dam of this little guy was barely 2.5 year old when she had her first litter and the sire was less than 2...again I'm sorry but this just sounds like a small shortcut on the breeders a part and one that could cost this pup in the long run.

Emcannon
15th February 2013, 04:31 PM
No MRI testing has been done on the parents but it seems that it is few and far between that are doing them. The breeder I am communicating with still has both the mother and father the sire to the father is in Germany and the two grandmothers and other grandfather are in the UK. I do not know the ages that the tests were done on the grandparents. The oldest of the grandparents is 11 (a male on the mothers side) and was heart clear until 10.5 and has a grade 1 murmur. All three other grandparents are still heart clear between the ages of 6 and 9.

I want to find the right dog and not rush this but at the same time I am ready now! I know that you get what you pay for but I am not in a financial position to spend close to $3,000.

Margaret C
15th February 2013, 07:13 PM
Have you seen heart certificates for the grandparents that prove they are all murmur free? Has the breeder? These claims are very easily made.

If the claims are true then I would expect the UK grandparents to all be shown on the over 5 heart clear list on the Cavalier Club website. Have you checked to see if they are there?

Claims of MRIs done on grandparents are useless, merely a pretence, lip service to health testing designed to fool puppy buyers. A responsible breeder has MRI certificates showing that the parent dogs had no SM and the tests were done when they were mature ( not just over a year old which is a common ruse in the UK )

I don't know about getting what you pay for...............When breeders ignore the SM and MVD protocols and buyers still hand over their money, it is the poor carelessly bred little cavaliers that pay the price of pain.

RodRussell
15th February 2013, 10:33 PM
No MRI testing has been done on the parents but it seems that it is few and far between that are doing them.

You are beginning to sound like a careless breeder (as in, "a breeder who could not care less"), with such a statement!


... The breeder I am communicating with still has both the mother and father ...

Then ask her why she has not had them MRI'd. What is she waiting for? Symptoms of SM?


... I know that you get what you pay for but I am not in a financial position to spend close to $3,000.

You could just as easily pay $3,000.00 for a cavalier puppy from untested parents. It depends upon the breeder and the particular litter, and many cavalier breeders charge high prices for puppies from untested parents. I know of many cavalier breeders who are spoken of as "saints" but who ignore most or all of the essential breeding protocols (heart, SM, eyes, hips, patellas). They win BOB and even BIS, and they win those titles often, but had they bothered to test their breeding stock, they'd have nothing to show or to breed.

Emcannon
15th February 2013, 11:51 PM
[QUOTE=RodRussell;428576]You are beginning to sound like a careless breeder (as in, "a breeder who could not care less"), with such a statement!

I'm sorry if I sounds that way. I feel the fact that I am doing the research that I am and trying to gain input and SUPPORT from those with more knowledge and experience shows that I do in fact care and am trying to make a responsible decision.

anniemac
16th February 2013, 02:34 AM
[QUOTE=RodRussell;428576]You are beginning to sound like a careless breeder (as in, "a breeder who could not care less"), with such a statement!

I'm sorry if I sounds that way. I feel the fact that I am doing the research that I am and trying to gain input and SUPPORT from those with more knowledge and experience shows that I do in fact care and am trying to make a responsible decision.

I know it's hard because I'm trying to find a puppy for my parents. However, price has no cooralation to the quality of the puppy. $3000 is a lot for a puppy but so is $2000 for an MRI another $2500 for surgery, another $2000 for MRI, cost of medicine each month, and I can easily say in Ella's 5 years I spent well over $8000 for just her SM which is nothing compared to the emotions of seeing her suffer.

I have seen cavalier puppies advertised for that much and I know they are from a BYB and maybe even not registered but they are "top quality". I really don't think those who do necessary tests cost any more, they do the tests for the love of the breed.

I know you want a puppy now but this new addition will hopefully be with you for 12-14 or so years. I am not saying that even if I end up finding a puppy for my parents that have done everything health test imaginable, it means there will not be a possibility of the puppy developing a health condition. There is that risk with every breed/mix rescue and is a part of owning a dog. Cavaliers do have some health issues that you will want to find a breeder that is trying to reduce the risk by any known ways protocols.

I really do wish you luck and not trying to be harsh, but I just want to stress that buying a puppy is very exciting but its also a big responsibility. In my eyes, Cavaliers are the best breed there is and I hope to always have them in my life. You will not find anyone on this board that will say that a parent under the age of 2 is ok.

Please take your time because I know there is a right puppy out there.

MomObvious
16th February 2013, 02:53 AM
I realize this part is SO hard. I found looking for a perfect breeder was SUPER hard and going to take a LONG time. I widened my search area to the entire US, yes I will fly to bring home the "right" puppy. The only good thing about the search is it allowed my more time to save money. I have found a few breeders I will purchase from when I want another cavalier. Cough cough next year :o I plan on talking to them again this summer and even put down deposits knowing it could take a 6-12 months or longer for the right litter to come along. Most great breeders do not breed very often so.......If you live in the US and would like the contact info. I have please feel free to private message me. In the mean time if you MUST own a cavalier please consider a rescue, these dogs need a loving home too.

RodRussell
16th February 2013, 03:37 PM
You are beginning to sound like a careless breeder (as in, "a breeder who could not care less"), with such a statement!

I'm sorry if I sounds that way. I feel the fact that I am doing the research that I am and trying to gain input and SUPPORT from those with more knowledge and experience shows that I do in fact care and am trying to make a responsible decision.

Pardon me if I came on too harsh. My point was that, you had written:

"No MRI testing has been done on the parents but it seems that it is few and far between that are doing them."

To me, that statement sounded like it was coming from a careless breeder who was trying to make a sales pitch to you, and that you were repeating what that breeder said to you. The statement speaks for itself as a signal that I would not want to consider getting a puppy from that breeder.

If you decide to "throw caution to the winds" and get a cavalier puppy from a breeder whom you know has not followed the essential breeding protocols, then you would be doing two bad things:

(1) You would be encouraging that breeder to continue ignoring the protocols and to continue producing puppies at higher risk for lifetimes of undue pain and suffering; and

(2) You would be setting yourself up for the greater likelihood of enormous medical expenses for the dog's lifetime (plus your own pain and suffering).

As others here have written, following these protocols is no guarantee that your puppy will not have early-onset MVD or SM or blindness or hip dysplasia or luxating patellas, but the purpose of these protocols is to significantly reduce the incidence of these disorders.

So, your choice in this instance is either to stand your ground and contribute to the betterment of the breed (be part of the solution) or to act upon impulse and contribute to a careless breeder's bottom line (be part of the problem).