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Fi
30th November 2005, 01:34 PM
found a great site

www.futurepet.com

i have jsut got myself loads of things for my babies, including a lovely heater for the pups. i know it is too late for this litter but on cold nights maybe lady and her Mom and uncle might like to use it.

well worth a visit, but make sure you ahve time, i ahve never seen a site with so many products.

Bruce, do you chip the pups youself?
do you vaccinate youself?? well not yourself but vaccinate the pups!!!! ;)

Lorraine
30th November 2005, 01:42 PM
They have got a great selection of stuff alright.

I was, however, disgusted to see them selling this:

http://www.futurepet.com/images/j80/ps6423.jpg

Fi
30th November 2005, 01:47 PM
What the hell is that?

is it what i think it is, it looks like sharp bits sticking out that would cause bleeding???? couldnt be???

they had that much stuff that i was only looking for what i needed, and i bought lots!! :?

Lorraine
30th November 2005, 01:51 PM
Here's the link Fidelma.

http://www.futurepet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?BP=1&RCAT=100.

Jo B
30th November 2005, 02:02 PM
icon_furious for stubburn and hard to control dogs icon_crying

Maxwell&me
30th November 2005, 02:14 PM
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!

YACK~ SCREAM~ Yell

I cant believe that a website anywhere would sell a torture device like that for a dog~ Actually I think it should be used on anyone that purchases it first so they know what it feels like..... icon_yikes

Fi
30th November 2005, 02:16 PM
Oh Jo, the pic of your pup is adorable..... I think tara is perfect on her :D

that looks like something out of the ice age, surely love and care would convert a stubborn dog?

Jo B
30th November 2005, 02:18 PM
I cant believe that a website anywhere would sell a torture device like that for a dog~ Actually I think it should be used on anyone that purchases it first so they know what it feels like..... icon_yikes

Great idea

Maxxs_Mummy
30th November 2005, 03:36 PM
I was mortified at that 'collar' so went to have a better look before I wrote them and e-mail of complaint. The full link is here http://www.futurepet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?BP=1&RCAT=100. It actually lies flat on the dogs neck and pushes in to 'control' them!

It's a German device and looks like something left over from Hitlers camps. I can't believe anyone would use something like that - German people really pamper their dogs so find it hard to believe it was a German invention!

Personally, i would have thought it would have the opposite affect, instead of 'controlling' them I would have thought that the pain it inflicted would cause them to be aggressive. :?

Karlin
30th November 2005, 04:01 PM
It's called a prong collar; and yes you are right Fi, love and positive training and patience are the tools to be used for training. A trainer friend, TKC on this board, says despite how scary these look, that they actually can be easier on the neck than standard choke chains which are even more widely used.

icon_yikes

Good idea to send a complaint. Sometimes sites just carry a wide range of goods supplied by a manufacturer and don't really think about the item itself. Prong and choke chains really divide people -- some, especially with large breed dogs, feel they can be used correctly as a training aid; others find them repulsive and appalling. Certainly newer thinking and training methods taught on dog behaviour qualification courses tend to consign these "aids" to a less enlightened past, but you do get people who are passionately in favour of them. Curiously I have found that advocates always claim it is everyone else who uses them incorrectly, not them.

On a cavalier, I think such things are barbaric and dangerous. Such small, gentle dogs do not need such collars, they can damage the trachea of small breeds as vets *regularly* advise, and several neurologists have said given the high incidence of syringomyelia in the CKCS, they should never be used even on asymptomatic dogs as they may aggravate or even initiate syrinxes.

Fi
30th November 2005, 04:07 PM
I was shown how to use a choke chain and up to now have been happy wtih it, as my Dr said i would not bring my dog out for a walk as she pulled and there was a chance of me doing more damage to my already damaged spine.

We used teh choke chain and after an initial few mins of pulling she settled back and it was always slack, so now i got my pappia harness we are progressing on to that, i even got one for Lady, however there was one harness missing fromt eh order adn the medium does not fit Cloe. :( sent it back to get a large.

I am totally torn about this choke chain as i do think getting it worked for me, but i no longer need it. im happy with my new purchase, or i will be when it arrives!

even as a child minder you are trained to ignore bad behaviour adn reward good behaviour, you just transfer this onto your pet.....

Bruce H
3rd December 2005, 09:25 PM
Bruce, do you chip the pups youself?
do you vaccinate youself?? well not yourself but vaccinate the pups!!!! ;)

No, we have the vet put in the microchips when the puppies go in for their final checkup just before leaving for their new homes. BTW, we have the vet give the pups a little topical anesthetic before inserting the chip. Costs a couple extra dollars but that's an awfully BIG needle. Yes, we do all the vaccinations, except rabies.

Karlin
3rd December 2005, 10:59 PM
Oh Fi, please don't use a choke chain on a small breed, and especially not a cavalier. You can train a dog not to pull by attending a good obedience class (TKC on the board runs great classes using positive training methods). It is really important not to use a choke on a cavalier, not just because they tend to have sensitive necks anyway and you risk inflicting tracheal damage, but several well-known neurologists believe it can increase the chance of inducing or accelerating the development of syringomyelia by placing sharp pressure on the neck, which is the first region where syrinxes arise.

If pulling remains an issue (I can't tell whether you are saying it isn't any more or you are assuming it won't be if you use a harness), TKC (on the board) can advise on using gentle halter-style training collars and will fit them and show you how to use them. These are extremely successful in use and run no risk of neck or head damage. If this interests you, PM me and I'll have TKC get in touch. TKC runs Dog Training Ireland http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/ and is a board certified trainer and behaviouralist.

Fi
4th December 2005, 04:03 PM
I used to use a choke chain and i found it very effective. and very instant, im hoping that when she gets the harness she will not revert to pulling.

I understand what you say about thechain, but if you go to any dog show, 99% of dogs will be on a choke, and it was as such a show i was told to get one for Cloe as she was a puller.

anyway she is off it now and all well.

TKC
21st December 2005, 06:12 PM
1. Choke chain works as follows: Dog pulls, dog chokes, dog feels pain, dog stops pulling. Reward = removal of pain
2. Lead training works as follows: Dog Pulls, owner stops, owner lures dog into desired position, owner cues that position "HEEL" owner rewards with treats, praise etc. Reward = Praise from the most important thing in their lives OWNER

With 1 there is no communication between dog and owner
EWith 2 learning is occuring. Communication is increased between owner and dog. Positivity is increased between owner and dog.

When you change to the harness lead train by using a cue / word so as you can ask your dog to come in close/wait/step back etc. You must be able to communicate with her without factoring pain into the equation. I could electric shock someone each time they walked through a door and they would stop walking through the door but I would be breaking down the communication between me us and they would feel negatively towards me. With breeds other than Cavaliers choke and prong collars cause redirected aggression. This means the dog wants to lash out at the pain and the collar but the get the owner instead.


I understand what you say about the chain, but if you go to any dog show, 99% of dogs will be on a choke, and it was as such a show i was told to get one for Cloe as she was a puller.

Any show I have been to I haven't seen choke chains what I have seen are show leads...very different. Show leads have a tiny chain around the dogs neck but the dog is trained not to pull so the owner is not using the show lead as a training device.

Show dogs are trained to walk a certain way (trot) You never see a show dog pulling its owner around the ring. A good breeder/show person/trainer/owner wont use choke chains because they damage the hair around the neck plus the posture of the dog (head high). A good trainer won't use these because they know better PLUS they don't work. They are not supposed to choke the dog. They are used by police for quick release on LARGE German Shepherds and Manwork dogs.

I *believe* the IKC code of ethics does not allow choke chains to be used in their classes and shows BUT I have to check that out.

And now here is a fact that you will all be surprised about

The said item in the image above is a PRONG / PINCH COLLAR.

Studies show that they are ... wait for it more humane than choke chains and cause less damage. The spikes do not lay flat on the dogs neck they are slightly angled in. When the dog pulls forward they all pinch little sections of the dogs neck causing discomfort and hence the dog associates the pulling with the feeling of pinching and stops. Again learning nothing really and you would have to use it forever. The reward for not pulling is not being hurt.

There was a case in the UK of a bull breed dog that savaged its owners arm while she was using one of these. The dog wasn't aiming at the owner but it got so frustrated and the pinch was so sore that the dog turned around in a frenzy attacking at will. Now this is not something I think should be used under any circumstances.

You should try putting a choke chain and prong around your arm or neck and tug on it, you will see how they feel and you will see the mark they leave behind. I suggest everyone does this before ever placing then on your dog.

Pain and fear have no place in training. Postive communiation, reward based training are the only way. If any trainer suggests that a choke chain is needed then IMO they can't train and can't communicate with the dog. Just because a dog isn't communicating with you doesn't mean that it is their fault. Remember it takes 2 to pull. I am sure your dog is thinking "this human sure pulls" If your dog pulls it is something you have to think about and deal with rather than band aid it. Communicate with your dog, it isn't about "getting them to do things" it is about "getting them to want to do things" :)

I have no problem helping anyone lead train once they are willing to put in the time and effort but I will not tolerate or allow choke or prongs in my class under any circumstances.

Karlin
21st December 2005, 06:53 PM
I am sure your dog is thinking "this human sure pulls"

:lol: Yes I can imagine them thinking just that...

Tara's a certified dog trainer as noted in a previous post and offers fantastic classes in Dublin. I posted the link above to her site. I know she doesn;t mean YOUR FAULT in a blaming way but 'your fault' with a smile -- as in, this is a problem best dealt with when you communicate with your dog to let him/her know what is good behaviour and what is unacceptable. If you don't communicate directly, they can't know. It can take more effort but ultimately you have a better behaved dog that responds because good behaviour is rewarded -- and you know how eager any dog is to please.

Karlin (who has a sweet little ruby rescue named Holly sniffing around the house right now! What a dote -- she gets along with kids and dogs, wants to meet *everyone*, and even likes my cats! :lol: Though the boys can;t figure out why they have to share the house with a GIRL).

joanna
21st December 2005, 07:42 PM
Hi Karlin,
I'm glad Holly is doing well. Enjoy her while you have her!
Joanna

TKC
21st December 2005, 10:16 PM
Yes the "your fault" comment is not aimed at anyone it is a generic post about prong and choke chains. I have edited it as it comes across wrong.

Holly sounds wonderful Karlin - Hmm I am sure you are temped!

Joanne - Hi to Daisy Boo :D

TKC
22nd December 2005, 05:04 PM
Bought 2 jumpers :)

I will mail them and ask if they will reconsider stocking the prong collars

Karlin
3rd January 2006, 05:58 PM
Update: TKC helped find Holly her final home, where she lives with a little pomeranian and a garden full of hens! Landed on all four paws; she is such a sweetie...

TKC
4th January 2006, 01:14 AM
Yes she is loved dearly and lives with a pom I homed a while ago and an older dog. It is like she was always there.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/TaraChoules/003.jpg