View Full Version : What is breed Standard?

11th January 2006, 12:23 PM
can you please tell me what the standard is for the colours of cavalier....

i know we have Blenheim which is Ruby[tan] and white
and we have Ruby which are all ruby
and Black and Tan which are as they sound
and tri colour which is all three.

my question is what do you call a ruby with only a tiny bit of white
and what do you call a black an white one with no ruby?

are these still acceptable as part of teh breed or what is the take on it?

hope my question makes sence.

thanks in advance

11th January 2006, 12:54 PM
They are mismarked...still cavalier but mismarked which is a fault in a show dog.

11th January 2006, 02:36 PM
Mismarking tends to be one of the least important faults though, as I understand it (though a black and whote cavalier could not be shown at all -- that is seriously mismarked. Some white on a ruby or B&T is a different matter). Far higher on the list of what counts towards an exemplary cavalier is the shape of head and body, general soundness, personality etc. :)

If I were buying a black and white cavalier I would expect a considerable discount as it is not breed standard at all. Also I would wonder whether it were pure cavalier. A lot of other breeds can creep in through indiscrimate breeding either by pet owners or puppy farms. There is also a rare chocolate gene that results in brown cavaliers, incodentally. We had some links here to them before.

I have full breed standards listed in the Library section of the site BTW.

11th January 2006, 02:45 PM
i was wondeing when my Lady is old enough, [and here is another question... when is she old enough to breed as i was told a year but i think that is too young] but when she does breed as you know she is a mismarked ruby so if i mated her with a ruby are the chances higher of me getting a full ruby or do i run the risk of getting a more like blenhiem?

also is it acceptable to mate a ruby with a black and tan, as i would love a black and tan one too.. these dogs are adictable....

11th January 2006, 03:05 PM
i was wondeing when my Lady is old enough, [and here is another question... when is she old enough to breed as i was told a year but i think that is too young] but when she does breed as you know she is a mismarked ruby so if i mated her with a ruby are the chances higher of me getting a full ruby or do i run the risk of getting a more like blenhiem?

also is it acceptable to mate a ruby with a black and tan, as i would love a black and tan one too.. these dogs are adictable....

My Breeder has a ruby with no mismarkings, she is a full ruby.
She is a excellent breeder and will under no circumstances breed any
female until they are at least 2 years old.
She is breeding her Ruby with a black/tan.

11th January 2006, 03:42 PM
i was wondering on the age of breeding too as i would like Chloe to have a litter before being spayed...she is due her 1st season any time now and how do i keep Harvey away from her?... Chloe is 6 months and Harvey is 7months any advice would be greatly recieved

11th January 2006, 04:08 PM
She shouldn't really be bred until 2.5 years old, with heart clear tests from both Chloe and the father, who themselves should be 5 years old at least. If either parent is showing heart murmurs by age 5 (about 50% do) she shouldn't be bred at all as such genes are detrimental to the breed (see link to UK club guidelines at bottom of this post). I presume Evelyn has heart tested her sire as this is an important basic for breeding in this breed given the terrible incidence of early onset heart disease, but you should get the information from her and also have Chloe cardiac certified. Lady also needs to be heart clear herself and this really cannot be done til she is at least 2 as heart murmurs are progressive and don;t generally begin to appear until at earliest, 2. A year is way too early and means there's a high likelihood of each generation dying younger from MVD if there's any risk of murmurs.

The UK cavalier club has lots of information on hearts and testing (see http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/heartmenu.html ), I have a lot of info in the health issues section here including the extensive reports from the cardio committee that originally advised establishing an MVD breeding protocol, and this info is generally available from any cavalier club website (unfortunately the Irish club doesn't seem to have a formal website). I believe strongly that one of the reasons so many Irish cavaliers die so young (around 6-7) of the ones I have known here, is that few people follow the basic heart protocol. Thus each generation gets worse and worse. :cry: Watching your loved pet die at 6 from cardiac failure, which is a very extended and slow and distressing death, is terrible. Dogs should be living twice that long at least.

Ask Evelyn if the cavalier club offers low cost cardiac testing at their club events? Almost every cavalier club worldwide does this to encourage good, healthy cavaliers and breeding practice. It is common at nearly every UK cavalier club event to have heart testing done quite cheaply. If the club doesn;t do this here, it sure raises some questions as to why people are breeding, as the IKC guidelines state, this should always be to improve the health, conformation and quality of the breed. :? I know the Irish Newfoundland club for example strongly pushes heart health and Doppler testing and tells people not to even *consider* buying a puppy from an IKC breeder who can;t produce Doppler info on parents and grandparents. And newfs have nothing like the heart problems of cavaliers. The cavalier club should be encouraging this as an absolute minimum.

Fi, I would really read more deeply on all aspects of breeding for health (Laura's site is very good for information) and consider whether you want to breed Lady. At this point breeders need to be not just at the bare mimimum, following heart guidelines and also getting hip scores and having eye clearances (these are very standard for UK and US breeders but sadly not for Irish breeders) but also to consider an MRI to test for affectedness with SM. What happens if you sell an SM puppy? What if the owner sues you to cover costs of treating for such a terrible condition, which will run to thousands? Will you pay to put down the puppy? Can ypou offer information and support to the owner? Would you take back such a dog -- which should always be the breeder's obligation? Every breeder needs to consider these moral dimensions of serious health problems in the breed, and IMHO do everything possible to help breed away from these conditions.

This site exists to encourage best practice and encoruage pet buyers to support breeders who follow best practice only. I don't encourage discussion of breeding generally on the site as I don't wish to encourage breeding except by those who are meticulous in following health protocols. For this reason, I gave Bruce space on the site as I hope many will learn how complex breeding is and how a breeder goes about preparing properly and following health protocols. Ensuring a healthy future for this wonderful breed (or any breed) is a heavy responsibility and given how under threat the cavalier is, nobody should be breeding any longer without ensuring all protocols are followed and that each generation of puppies improves in health and meets conformation guidelines too. Otherwise, there's no difference from backyard bred and puppy farm bred dogs, where dogs are bred with no regard to health or whether they meet the breed standard. That's why most good breeders also show their dogs because it is the only way to stay on top of conformation and learn about best health practice, and to find and work closely with a mentor.

More info: this is what the ackcsc says people should look for in a good breeder: http://ackcsc.org/wantacavalier.html

Breeding guidelines from the UK club: http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/mvd.html

11th January 2006, 04:23 PM
When Cloe goes into heat i send Max on his holidays for 2 to 3 weeks, so he is not around the stressfull enviorment of wanting what he cant have, poor lad probally couldnt do it anyway, but i know he would try as he is sniffing her already and im wondering why as she is not in heat, the babies are only what 3 months old she couldnt be in season already. but im keeping an eye to make sure, adnif she is then off he will go!!!!!

11th January 2006, 04:27 PM
I thought you were neutering Max? icon_nwunsure

You need to ask Evelyn on what combinations would produce a B&T -- it depends on the parents and grandparents and which genes are dominant and recessive. I would presume she would know the full pedigrees of both these dogs and can tell you.

11th January 2006, 05:37 PM
My Sasha is a mismarked blenim - she only has one ruby eye patch and the other eye is white with no patch. My breeder gave us a substantial discount on her b/c we picked her for a family/4-H dog. She actually has done much better as a therapy dog and she was spade around a year.

My ruby girl is a full ruby w/no white on her at all, but she came to us just last summer (she just turned 8).

I definately encourge folks to look into adopting an older dog that may be retired from breeding/showing. I've had two re-homed adult cavs now, and really love giving them so much extra attention knowing they've done their "work" in life whether it's breeding or showing. Now it's just time for they to sit on the bed and eat lots of treats!

Sheri Ramirez

11th January 2006, 06:00 PM
You need to ask Evelyn on what combinations would produce a B&T -- it depends on the parents and grandparents and which genes are dominant and recessive. I would presume she would know the full pedigrees of both these dogs and can tell you.

Cavalier colors are pretty easy. Many breeds are much harder. Sandy

11th January 2006, 06:04 PM
There's a link to a guide to colours in the Library. :) For detailed info, it makes sense for Fi to talk to Evelyn (who is head of the irish breed club and knows all the dogs involved and therefore, what colours any given crossing should produce).

Here's the link: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=65

11th January 2006, 06:21 PM
Back in the day when I thought it would be wonderful to show and breed...( that is untill I figured out that it would be a minimum of 35,000.00 start up to do it the right way for the first two years) I book marked this page. It may be of assistance to you


Hope it helps...

Darby's Mom
11th January 2006, 08:04 PM
Maxwell&ME: That is a GREAT link for color possibilities & basic genetic explanations! I've seen the link Karlin has provided (which is also wonderful), but being that I don't understand any French whatsoever, an Engligh site is great! THANKS!!

Fi: If you are curious as to the "official" breed standard in the USA, this is directly from the CKCS Club, USA Website. The color standard is at the bottom. In my opinion, "mismarked" cavs are just as cute and wonderful as "show marked" cavs! Unless you are planning to show, it really doesn't matter! ;)

It is important to remember that a dog can have one or more of the faults listed in the Standard, in moderation, and still be an over-all typical gay, elegant Cavalier. On the other hand, bad temper or meanness are not to be tolerated and shall be considered disqualifying faults. It is the typical gay temperament, combined with true elegance and "royal" appearance, which are of paramount importance in the breed.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Breed Standard

General: An active, graceful, well-balanced dog, very gay and free in action; Appearance: fearless and sporting in character, yet at the same time gentle and affectionate.

Head: The skull is lightly rounded, but without a dome or peak; it should appear flat because of the high placement of the ears.

Eyes: Large, round and set well apart; color a warm, very dark brown, giving a lustrous, limpid look. There should be slight cushioning under the eyes, which contributes much to the sweet, gentle expression characteristic of the breed. Faults: Small, almond shaped, prominent, or light eyes; white surrounding ring.

Nose: There should be a shallow stop, and the length from the base of the stop to tip of nose should be at least 1 1/2 inches. Nostrils should be well developed and the pigment uniformly black. Putty, or "dudley" noses, and white patches on the nose are serious faults, as are small, pinched nostrils.

Muzzle: Well tapered; mouth level; lips well covering. Faults: Sharp, pointed or snipey muzzle. Full or pendulous lips. Flesh marks, i.e. patches of pink pigment showing through hair on muzzle.

Teeth: Strong and even, preferably meeting in a scissor bite, although a level bite is permitted. Undershot mouths are greatly to be discouraged; it should be emphasized, however, that a slightly undershot bite in an otherwise well-balanced head with the correct sweet expression should not be penalized in favor of a level mouth with a plain or hard expression. Faults: Weak or crooked teeth; crooked jaws.

Ears: Set high, but not close, on top of the head. Leather long, with plenty of silky feathering, and wide enough so that when the dog is alert, the ears fan slightly forward to frame the face.

Neck: Fairly long, without throatiness, well enough muscled to form a slight arch at the crest. Set smoothly into nicely sloping shoulders.
Shoulders: Sloping back gently with moderate angulation, to give the characteristic look of top class and presence

Body: Short-coupled with ribs well sprung but not barrelled. Chest moderately deep, leaving ample heart room. Back level, leading into strong, muscular hind quarters. Slightly less ody at the flank than at the last rib, but with no tucked-up appearance

Legs: Forelegs straight and well under the dog, bone moderate, elbows close to the sides. Hind legs moderately muscled; stifles well turned; hocks well let down. The hind legs viewed from the rear, should parallel each other from the hock to the heel. Pastern strong and feet compact with well cushioned pads. The dog stands level on all four feet. Faults: Loose elbow, crooked legs; stifles turned in or out; cow hocks; stiltedaction; weak pasterns; open feet.

Tail: Set so as to be carried level with the back. Tail should be in constant, characteristic motion when dog is in action. Docking: Docking is optional, but whether or not the tail is docked, it must balance the body. If docked, the tail must not be cut too short; two-thirds is the absolute minimum to be left on the body, and the tails of broken-colored dogs should always be docked to leave a white tip.

Coat: Long and silky and very soft to the touch; free from curl, though slight wave is permissible. Feathering on the ears, legs and tail should be long, and the feathering on the feet is a feature of the breed. Trimming: NO trimming of the dog is permitted. However, it is permissible, often desirable, to remove the hair growing between the pads and the underside of the foot.

Size: Height 12 to 13 inches at the withers; weight, proportionate to height, between 13 and 18 pounds. These are ideal heights and weights; slight variations are permissible and a dog should not be penalized only in comparison with one of equal general appearance, type and quality. The weedy specimen is as much to be penalized as the oversized one.

Colors: The following colors are the only ones acceptable:

Blenheim: Rich chestnut markings well broken up on a pearly white ground. The ears must be red and the color evenly spaced on the head, with a wide white blaze between the ears, in the center of which is the much desired lozenge (diamond), or "Blenheim Spot". The lozenge is a unique and highly desirable, though not essential, characteristic of the Blenheim.

Tricolor: Jet black markings broken up on a pearly white ground; with rich tan markings over the eyes, on the cheeks and on underside of tail.

Ruby: Whole-colored rich red.

Black-and-Tan: Jet black with rich tan markings over the eyes, on cheeks, inside ears, on chest, legs, and underside of tail.

11th January 2006, 09:55 PM
Fi -

I find it very disturbing that you have just bred your 2nd litter without even knowing the breed standard. IMHO - this is the absolute minimum knowledge that anyone involved in breeding any breed should be aware of. But more importantly are health issues. Especially in this breed where health problems are so common, getting animals screened for genetic diseases before breeding is essential and not doing so is irresponsible.

Cavs are prone to eye problems so should have their eyes checked by an opthamologist before breeding - ideally annually.
Cavs are very prone to heart problems and all breeding cavs should have their hearts checked by a board certified cardiologist - ideally every year. And ideally not breeding dogs until over 2 or 2.5 to avoid breeding a dog that will develop a murmur young. (I believe under 5 is considered young.) Also - you should check the parents and grandparents and as far back as possible to see what kind of hearts are in the lines.
Cavs also are prone to hip dysplasia and should have their hips x-rayed and evaluated by OFA (or at least have the x-rays evaluated by your vet) to avoid passing on this debilitating genetic defect. OFA x-rays cannot be done until 2 years old. Also - it is a good idea to have patellas checked as this can also be a major problem and cost thousands of dollars to fix surgically.
Not to mention Syringomyelia which is increasingly prevalent and overhwelmingly devastating. (I am trying to cope w/ this in my severely affected dog now.)

Fi - if you really want to do this right - which it seems that you do - then you should start doing more research on Cavs and their health problems, breed standard, and responsible breeding. Ideally, research should be done BEFORE breeding, not afterwards. But you are where you are, and I encourage you to learn more about Cavaliers and their various devastating health problems before breeding again. At 3 months old, I'm not sure how you can have any idea of Lady should be bred. You need to wait years to see how she turns out, if she conforms to breed standard, and if she is healthy enough to be bred. It would be great if you could attend and participate in some shows also to see how she conforms to breed standard.

There is lots of info in the health section of this board, actually. That would be a good place to start.

12th January 2006, 06:37 AM
Here's a link to Karlin's FAQ on major health issues in the breed:

which includes additional links for more info.

And the rest of the forum:

And here is breed standard:
AKC: http://www.akc.org/breeds/cavalier_king_charles_spaniel/index.cfm
Irish Cavalier Club: http://homepage.eircom.net/~cavalierclub/about_the_breed.htm

12th January 2006, 07:46 AM
thank you for all the replies.....
however my initial thoughts have been completly thrown by Rorys comments...... without seeming rude, i have done my research and i know full well the medical problems in Cav's, Also i am not one to sit back and say "oh i might not be able to breed of Lady" i look for the possitive and say i will, as i did with Max for a long time kept thinking he may be ok, but it came to a stage the decission was made that he was not suitable for shiring. If i didnt care about the breed of my dogs i would of bread off him regardless of the outcome.

Max is too ill to be sterlised right now, but when he is given the all clear he will be done.

alot of points i raise in this forum stem from talking to other members who raise an idea in my head for a topic that [i think] some other members may find interesting even if i know the answer, however i was not sure if it was ok to breed ruby with black and tan, of course i have done research but i wanted to hear it from real people i wanted to get feedback from people on this site to get a feeling if it was ok to do so. i know some people hate inter colour breeding...... and someone in the cavalier club here in Dublin actually is against cross breeding within cavaliers sets.

I know Eveylin very well and have been to many shows and feed of her and others for information...... I listen to everything Evelyn tells me and if she advises something i do it, i will be going to her for a stud for Lady when she tells me it is ok to do so. she comes and sees my pups and tels me which ones she likes and why, she has been a tremendous support to me and im sure others.....

I am not naive and i had to make this point .... that i do know what i am doing and i can assure you nothing i do is disturbing.

12th January 2006, 12:41 PM
Fi, with all due respect, Chloe should never have been bred without heart clearances. It truly worries me if the club is sanctioning breeding of dogs only a year old where nothing is known of their heart or other health history. This goes completely against what breed clubs advise worldwide and I don't really understand why the Irish one -- which sadly does not have a good international reputation on this issue, despite having an important role in the history of the breed-- isn't taking such health issues (literally) to heart. You cannot know enough about health issues if you haven't had hips certified and scored, cardiac testing done as a routine event, and it worries me that someone wasn't there with you in person, advising, through the whelpings you have done as clearly you have had so many questions -- and the answers should have come from a mentor sitting at your side, not someone who comes to visit the puppies many weeks later after the potentially traumatic and dangerous period of the whelping.

I could not advise anyone taking puppies from a breeder who doesn't have any heart testing, as a basic precaution, done on their dogs. I would hope this will be done in future and that the breed club will take this on board as well -- they are already a decade out of tune on this very serious issue, from all I can see. I would hope more is happening behind the scenes than I am seeing up front but I am left a bit flummoxed that the head of a breed club seemingly is advising on matings where none of the dogs seem to have had the most basic testing done for the most serious medical condition facing the breed, when following the heart protocols is PROVEN to improve overall breed health and add years to the life of individual dogs. :? I would love to see these issues raised with the club and maybe some answers as to why they do not advocate these important health safeguards for this wonderful breed.

12th January 2006, 12:49 PM
none of my dogs, including max have any heart defect, this has been checked.

I have spoken to many breeders who were alone thier first time, and to recap "some" of the questions i have raised on the board are to raise an issue then to quelsh knowledge i need personally, if need informaiton i generally find in in many different sources to get a fair idea of what is true.

Do you really think i want to breed a health problem into the breed??

12th January 2006, 01:31 PM
Karlin or Rory,

Perhaps you can clear a question up for me....Its my understanding here in the States that a huge percentage of Cavalier have a heart problem...( My VET told me as many as 80 % develop some kind of Valve problem)

But when I hear from people Like Fi...all their dogs are heart clear? Is there that much of a difference from Country to Country? It makes me think that the dogs in other places in the world have better hearts, or different tests being done that perhaps dont pick up the same things that the ones here do?

( sorry, havnt had a full cup of coffee this morning, hope you can understand what Im getting at)

12th January 2006, 03:56 PM
Since we're talking about colors...

Last night I was asked to stop into a local pet store (I sorta know the owner) to look at two tri-colored cavalier pups they have to sell. Well, first of all I told my daughter I wanted to break into the store later that night and just confiscate both puppies because they SHOULDN'T be in a pet store. I kept trying to get out of them "what" part of the state the pups had come from, but as pet stores go, they weren't very forth-coming with their guarded information.

Aside from that, of the owner's daughters works there as well and she asked me what the term "ruby red spaniel" meant - was it the same breed as a Cavalier KCS? When I told her it was one of the colors, she stated that she also read in a book there was that particular type of spaniel (ruby red). So, anyone have any knowledge of that?

I'm still contemplating the 'puppy break-in' theory for this weekend. Heck, while I'm at it I might just steal the Cavalier-Shitz Tsu puppy they had too? What are we to do to keep protecting our breed & it's standards?


Sheri Ramirez

Cathy T
12th January 2006, 04:08 PM
i was wondering on the age of breeding too as i would like Chloe to have a litter before being spayed...

Why do you want one litter before spaying?

12th January 2006, 04:38 PM
Fi -- as the breed club here knows, the dogs need to be *cardiac* tested -- meaning by a cardiac specialist, NOT A VET. No vet is allowed to give a heart clearance to a dog for breeding purposes or write a heart certtificate, anywhere -- this MUST be done by a cardiac specialist. Vets have very poor ability to pick up murmurs by stethoscope. I have posted an article making this point in the health section (see below), which is why all clubs and breeders use cardiac-cleared dogs ONLY. In Sweden these certs must be issued every 8 months for dogs to be bred!!

Here is a chart that shows why you can never rely on a vet opinion about a murmur -- they usually cannot pick them up until they have reached a severe level -- the point at which they are generally going into congestive heart failure.


For Chloe to have been bred, she should have been 2.5 years old and heart clear as certified by a cardiac specialist (which means, at UCD here) and both her parents should have been guaranteed heart clear at age 5 themselves, too, also cardiac-specialist clear.

Lady should not be bred til she is at least two and heart clear, with Chloe and the sire both heart clear at that time as well. Ideally Lady should be MRId as well.

12th January 2006, 05:12 PM

Nearly 100% of cavaliers will eventually suffer from it. And 50% of ALL cavaliers will have a murmur by age 5. This is why age 5 is the important age at which parents need to be heart clear before breeding an offspring which itself should be at least 2, as murmurs do not tend to show before age two.

MVD rates are consistent across all colours and all countries. There is no country that produces heart-clear lines, anywhere.

The ONLY way to certify that a cavalier is free from a murmur is a cardiac test by a cardiac specialist. A vet can only make a broad guess and statistics show they will be wrong at least 50% of the time until the dog is SIX OR OLDER, meaningless in breeding terms! That is such a poor rate of accuracy as to mean you are playing Russian roulette with heart health with EVERY breeding without the cardiac clearances as you have an equal chance of your cavalier dam or sire already suffering from a murmur, regardless of what the vet said.

Here is the info from my health section -- this is just the general intro. There is TONS of info on MVD in cavaliers out on the web and no one should buy or particularly breed a cavalier without knowing this info.

MVD - mitral valve disease
Acquired degenerative valvular disease is the most common cardiac disease in the dog, with the mitral valve most often affected. MVD can result in progressive cardiac enlargement and congestive heart failure. Symptoms can include shortness of breath, coughing, fainting and exercise intolerance. Heart medications, diet and weight management can give years of good quality life for Cavaliers living with MVD. Although MVD is very common in elderly small breed dogs, in the case of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the disease has an earlier onset and a faster progression. Studies indicate that 50% of Cavaliers aged 5 and older have MVD, with nearly 100% affected by the age of 10. These statistics are the same for lines from American, English, Irish and European kennels. Cavaliers with MVD exhibit heart murmurs, which are graded I to VI depending on the intensity. Some regular veterinarians have difficulty hearing low grade murmurs, which is why breeders and owners use board certified veterinary cardiologists to listen for murmurs.

It is currently the most serious and prevalent disease in the breed. In advanced stages it can lead to heart failure and death. If a breeder does not seem to know much about it, is unwilling to share information with you, claims the tests unreliable, or tries to tell you their dogs don’t get it, find another breeder. Responsible breeders try to delay the onset and severity of MVD by screening ALL of their breeding stock for this condition, using a veterinary cardiologist or the OFA*. Ask to see certificates. Look closely at the date of the examination, as the clearance is only good for one year. The certificate should state that the dog is clear. If they cannot or will not show you the certificates, find another breeder.

Places to find more information on MVD:

Living with MVD:

Health and care:

*The OFA doesn't do any heart screening but is just a database where results can be posted.

Many may not realise that the CKCS club breeding protocol on MVD, now widely recommended across all the worldwide CKCS breed clubs (and in some cases, like Sweden, an actual requirement for breeding) was only brought in in 1998. This was at the CKCS USA club's symposium on MVD, which considered the results of studies by researchers on thousands of cavaliers. Out of that came the recommendation many will be familiar with: to only breed dogs when they reach age 2.5 minimum, and have been certified heart clear AND if their parents were heart clear at age 5. Otherwise, it is advised not to breed any cavalier of unknown heart history until age 5, and only if it is murmur-free (certified by a cardiologist, not a vet, as vets are known to be poor at picking up murmurs until they are fairly serious. See: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=64 ).

There is an abridged transcript of the proceedings here: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs.nsf/filelookup/98heartsymp.PDF/

It's an important piece of cavalier history and also might help people better understand the issue of MVD (mitral valve disease) in the breed.

This offically ends all further discussions on breeding litters, from people breeding or planning on breeding, including questions asking advice on how to breed, UNLESS breeders are working within the full breed club heart recommendations at a very minimum.

Bruce has set a standard for the type of breeding discussion and standard I consider valuable, educational, and beneficial to the breed, which is why he has a forum on this site -- so much can be learned from his approach and he has been generous in offering advice and explanations. The ethos of the board is to keep this breed as healthy as possible, encourage buyers to understand the health issues and only obtain puppies from breeders following the standard health protocols, and ensure breeding is only discussed within this framework. I absolutely do not want to support, encourage or tolerate any less meticulous level of breeding. These are living creatures, breeding is a privilege, not a right, and this is a breed whose very survival is already under very serious threat due to indiscriminate breeding without following heart protocols or making sure pedigrees ensure the lowest risk of hip dysplasia, eye problems, patella problems, and ideally, syringomyelia as well. I feel very strongly about this as I have noted in earlier threads, and am going to close this particular thread to further discussion as I do not want any further discussion on the topic nor do I feel it necessary to defend my position -- indeed I believe any other position and any less meticulous view of breeding to be utterly indefensible.

I will clarify guidelines on breeding discussions and add them to the posting guidelines section for everyone's general information.