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Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 03:53 PM
hi,

after a long hard think we have decided to add this little bundle of fur to our family.
We are trying to decide on a name for him and we like Oliver, however this may change!!!

http://www.muchos.co.uk/members/blackbeauty/oliver.jpg

icon_banana icon_banana

Jen
15th January 2006, 04:51 PM
Adorable!! Love the name too! :)

Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 05:01 PM
Hi,

Not sure what is happening now, after making all the arrangements for this pup the owner has just informed me that the pup has a grade 1 heart mumur :( even though they had said he was healthy ( i asked and was told he was fine!!) icon_yikes

back to square one i think :(

rory
15th January 2006, 06:17 PM
Oh, how disappointing. :( I'm so sorry!!! I would not take this pup w/ a grade 1 murmur as a puppy. It could be something benign, but w/ a breed predisposed to heart problems - this is not a good sign. it's also discouraging that the breeder didn't tell you about this before??

Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 06:22 PM
this is what he sent....

"he has a slight murmur(grade 1) which will clear shortly."

i've never heard of a heart murmur correcting itself :(

Cathy T
15th January 2006, 06:50 PM
this is what he sent....

"he has a slight murmur(grade 1) which will clear shortly."

i've never heard of a heart murmur correcting itself :(

I don't buy it. I've heard that a murmur in a puppy may correct itself but I wouldn't risk it. I want to start off with the most healthiest puppy possible.

Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 07:59 PM
i totally agree cathy, thats why i had to turn him down, not that the pup deserves a loving home but for the simple reason that he lied to me from the start!

Karlin
15th January 2006, 08:21 PM
Puppies under the age of one would rarely ever have a murmur of the type associated with MVD. They are just too young to get one.

However, puppy murmurs are not uncommon and they usually do disappear. They are considered very minor.

So it would depend on the age of this puppy and who is hearing the murmur and offering the diagnosis. The owner may not know the exact terminology very well but it would not be out of line at all for a puppy to have a murmur of this sort and they do indeed disappear. The owner may also have only just had a vet pick up the presence of the apparent murmur in which case he wouldn;t have known to tell you before. These murmurs are callled puppy murmurs or flow murmurs. See below for more info.

However: I would strongly advise ONLY getting a puppy from a breeder who is following the standard heart protocols and who can show you heart certs for both parents.

More on puppy murmurs from the UK CKCS Club:

http://thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/flow.html


FLOW MURMURS - WHAT THEY MEAN

Simon Swift
May 2004


A heart murmur is caused by vibrations in the heart. or blood vessels. These vibrations are usually created by turbulence, and occasionally by vibrations of structures in the heart e.g, valves, Just imagine a. river flowing slowly and smoothly, that is laminar flow, Now picture a small fast-flowing stream with lots of currents and eddies, this is turbulent flow.

Turbulence is due to one of three things:
High velocity blood flow
Low blood viscosity - as seen in anaemia
Flow from a narrow region into a large area
Each heart beat ejects a certain volume of blood, the stroke volume, Puppies have larger stroke volumes for their size than adult dogs. This means that for each heart beat, a relatively larger volume of blood is ejected out a smaller vessel when compared to an adult dog. When excited such as at a veterinary surgery, this can increase further and so the outflow velocity from the ventricles in the aorta or pulmonary artery can increase above a certain threshold and become turbulent creating a murmur.

Typically these innocent flow murmurs tend to be fairly quiet (up to grade 3), soft and blowing in character and occur at the beginning to middle of the heart heat, Also they are usually loudest over the aorta or pulmonary artery and can vary with body position. Unfortunately, it is impossible to differentiate between some mild congenital heart diseases such as sub-aortic stenosis (a narrowing under the valves at the base of the aorta) and a flow murmur. Most importantly, innocent flow murmurs disappear by 6 months of age.

If you have a puppy with a murmur that could be a flow murmur, you have two options:
Have the puppy re-examined in 1 month. An innocent flow murmur should get quieter as the puppy grows. If the murmur is the same or louder, further investigations such as Doppler ultrasound examination would be indicated.
Have a Doppler ultrasound examination performed if you need to know NOW. This will allow the cardiologist to assess the valves and the speed and direction of blood flow through the heart can be measured. This will differentiate between mild heart disease and flow murmurs.
Hence, if I pick up a quiet murmur in a young puppy at a show, I would recommend that the owner waits to see how it develops before making any drastic decisions. If it is an innocent flow murmur, it should gradually get quieter and disappear. Anything more significant will persist and require further investigation.

Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 08:24 PM
pup is 3 months old and he said that the Vet had said it was a grade 1 heart murmur, which would correct itself

Karlin
15th January 2006, 08:27 PM
Then it is almost certainly a flow murmur and these are not uncommon and are no big deal at all. The dog really should be checked by a cardio though to be sure about the nature of the murmur. This would not be MVD, the pup is way too young to show an MVD-related murmur.

Karlin
15th January 2006, 08:33 PM
I should really add that uncertainties like this are why people should ONLY go to reputable breeders who follow health protocols. A good breeder could explain the difference between MVD and flow murmurs and talk through options regarding a puppy with a flow murmur and not leave a potential buyer feeling concerend or lied to. I don't know whether this man is a breeder or selling on a pup from elsewhere but if he isn;t affiliated to the club and doing standard testing I wouldn't take a pup from such a source anyway. Contact the breed club for references for good breeders that health-test.

Look at it this way -- the least worry you have is a puppy murmur if it is a flow murmur in a puppy bred by a good breeder following heart protocols. If you buy from a breeder who doesn't follow them, you statistically have at least a 50% chance that your new pup will have a murmur anyway in the next few years and it is more likely to be a serious murmur. Stdies show breeders who follow heart protocols and other good health breeding guidelines produce puppies that are considerably less likely to get a murmur until old age.

Harry & Heidi's mom
15th January 2006, 08:44 PM
as cathy said, i'd rather have a healthy pup from the start, i guess i'll wait until Harry's breeder has another litter later this year

Claire
16th January 2006, 12:49 PM
What a shame, he does look so lovely, but if you did get him and get attached and he got worse would not be very nice for you and your family.

Karlin
16th January 2006, 05:15 PM
Just reiterating that a flow murmur pup IS a healthy pup -- it is just that due to excitement or other causes, their heartbeat can SOUND like it has a murmur. It isn't really *a murmur* per se but simply related to the louder sound a puppy heart makes ANYWAY. The reason it goes away as the dog gets older is not because it is "healing" or "getting better" but simply -- as the cardiac doctor's post above notes -- the fact that as the dog gets larger and older less blood volume moves through the heart and the murmur sound vanishes.

*** If this has been verified as a flow murmur, it is simply a murmur SOUND not an actual murmur caused by a physical problem. It has absolutely no relation to a health issue. ***

rory
16th January 2006, 05:43 PM
But considering the breeder withheld this information from her intially, why should she believe him when he says the vet said it would go away? that just sends up too many red flags for me.

Bruce H
16th January 2006, 07:32 PM
Not to be argumentative, but do we know that the breeder withheld information or did the breeder just now get the puppy to the vet and find out him/herself?

Our puppies get one last look by the vet about 1 week before they're ready to go to their new home. If we heard a puppy murmer at that time, we would tell the owner and would hope that they wouldn't think we were withholding information. I guess what it boils down to is how reputable is the breeder. I have a hard time imagining any of the reputable breeders I know withholding this kind of information, even though its probably a harmless puppy murmer.

rory
16th January 2006, 07:34 PM
You're right, Bruce. We don't know the whole story. I took the story to imply that the breeder didn't tell them bout thee murmur until they had decided to take it. But you're right - they could have just now taken it to the vet and found out about it.
Heather - maybe you could talk to the vet about it and see what he/she thinks?

Harry & Heidi's mom
16th January 2006, 07:58 PM
your right Rory over the course of a few days he had said pup was healthy, then once we had decided to take him then he told us that he had a health problem, so we arn't taking the pup on the grounds that i can't trust him

Harry & Heidi's mom
16th January 2006, 09:31 PM
just emailed him using another email address, this is what he replied..................


Up to now he is available as i am waiting for a reply from coventry
Eyes and hips are OK, but vet tells me he has a very slight murmur(G2).
Loves all my grandkids and plays readily with his mother and my sons cavalier.

so his heart problems have suddenly got worse??? icon_yikes

Bruce H
17th January 2006, 01:06 AM
OK, NOW something sounds screwy. No more sympathy for that breeder.

Karlin
17th January 2006, 01:36 AM
As noted before: do ask for the heart certs in advance -- ask if the breeder does heart clearances etc and then ask to see them for the parents. These are standard questions and should be step one before you even consider taking any puppy from any breeder. That way you at least know you are starting on the best health footing regarding hearts that you can.