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Question about SM in US Cavaliers

LorifromGA

LorifromGA

Well-known member
My mother-in-law (a poodle breeder and judge) and I were talking this morning, and we were wondering if SM is as prevalent in Cavs in the States as it seems to be in Britain. We just don't hear as much about it over here. My vet said he had heard the term, but that was about the extent of his knowledge. I first heard about it in 2004 from a Cavalier breeder in Maryland, but she didn't personally know of any Cavs who had it. I don't know of any breeders, at least in the Southeast, who routinely MRI test their dogs, either. Jasper's breeder does describe it in the Health Problems section of her website, though. I know American Cavaliers come from the same stock as European Cavs, so it would make sense that our dogs would be affected at about the same rate. Why don't we hear more about it over here?

Also, is there any place on the web that we can see the BBC documentary? I'd love to see it, but of course, it wasn't aired here.

Thanks,

Lori
 
Yes, it's generally the same level of affectedness in breed study samples and neurologists in the US say they continue to see far more cavaliers with SM than any other single breed.

Unfortunately the US club websites have been very slow to get information up -- one still has virtually nothing -- and the national clubs have made very little attempt to open a broad discussion with breeders or inform them even about the studies thy themselves have funded. For example, NO discussion was ever opened or even announcement made when the ACKCSC-funded study at North Carolina was completed, despite its quite worrying conclusions. It took several months before the club even posted a link to the abstracts for the study, which were available on other websites weeks earlier.

Both clubs have now agreed to donate towards the Montreal genome research to find the SM gene(s), a significant step towards funding such a crucial project for the breed's future, yet this too has not been announced to club members on the websites or via email, and no information at all has been circulated to club members about the vital need for blood samples/cheek swabs from scanned families of cavaliers or other information which would greatly help the genome research.

It is as if the clubs hope the continuing lack of information will lead people to conclude what you are mentioning -- somehow there's a lower level of incidence in US cavaliers.

Breeders need to start demanding their own national and regional clubs give them more information on this important health issue and let them know what research is underway and how they can help. People can help spread awareness to vets in the US -- who have a far lower awareness of the condition than their UK counterparts -- by printing out the Rusbridge information sheet and treatment protocol and symptoms sheet at www.smcavalier.com and giving them to area vets. Even in the UK the average time to diagnosis is over a year and a half -- as vets tend to misdiagnose. And if people do not scan, they have no idea whether their dogs are affected or not.

There remains a huge need too for clubs to get out and negotiate some low cost scanning schemes in the US. One reason fewer dogs have been scanned is that it costs several times what it costs at low cost centres in the UK to have dogs MRId. It is thus harder on US breeders to finance scans.

If the genome project is successful there will be less need for breeders to scan to know the likelihood of each of their dogs carrying the gene(s) or acquiring SM as the dogs will all be able to have estimated breeding values with the genome input.

All research to date is included on Rod Russell's www.cavalierhealth.org site so there's no need for any breeder to be unaware of existing work and the results of those studies to date.

PS: Toy poodles are also known to have SM -- basically all toy breeds seem to be at risk with all evidence pointing to cavaliers being most affected.
 
I agree with what Karlin wrote above about SM in the US. Many of the veterinary neurologists are up to speed with CM/SM in Cavaliers. In the studies conducted in the US of asymptomatic Cavaliers, the percentages found with CM and/or SM are high. In the North Carolina State University study (http://www.cavalierhealth.org/NCSU_2006_SM_Reports.htm), 87.5% of asymptomatic Cavaliers were found to have CM. In another study, Dr. Marino of the Long Island Veterinary Specialists found 60.5% of asymptomatic Cavaliers with CM -- 23 out of 38 -- as of October 2007. His efforts have since continued. See http://www.livs.org/livsnews.htm
 
This is just outrageous! I can't believe the clubs are sticking their heads in the sand about such an important issue. It sounds like a "repress and deny" strategy. Breeders--and certainly the people who buy their puppies--have a right to know this information. :mad:

I read all the documents on smcavaliers and am going to print them out to take to my vet. He says he sees very Cavaliers, so he just didn't know much (if anything) about SM. I'm taking Jasper in on Thursday morning for a skin scrape because of his constant scratching. I'm hoping it's not SM, but now I'm more worried. I've been reading all the SM posts and discussions about the BBC program, but I think I've been thinking in the back of my mind that it must not be that big of a problem here. Obviously I was wrong!!

One good thing is that we have pet insurance for Jasper, and it covers all specialist visits and diagnostic tests. I'm seriously thinking about having an MRI done just to know since I'd get back 80% of the cost. We're not terribly far from Auburn, Alabama, which I noticed offers MRIs for $600, I think. That would be well worth it. I'm also going to check the University of Georgia's Vet School, which is only an hour and a half from me. They have an outstanding reputation, and they're known for having very reasonable costs.

Thanks for this information. And Emily (ejay), thanks for posting that youtube link. My husband and I are going to watch the show after the kids go to bed.

Lori
 
We have a veterinary neurosurgeon here in Ohio who came from Auburn. His name is Dr. Axlund, and he performs decompression surgery on cavaliers. At the time that Charlie had his surgery and several follow-ups, Dr. Axlund mentioned that cavaliers from out of state were coming to him for decompression neurosurgery. I didn't think to ask him for any statistics, but I know it SM is not uncommon based on our conversations. He has cavalier patients from the SE US.

I know of many cavaliers throughout the US who have SM and 1-2 with CM. Only a few of the owners are members of CavTalk. Several are not members of any Internet group.
 
Lori, I live in Atlanta also, and I hear about SM all of the time. Had a conversation last night with another local person on the subject. I know a number of Cavaliers in Atlanta with SM.

I gave info to my own vet quite a few years ago - and she called me in a few years back to observe one of her client's Cavaliers and discuss the situation with another colleague. I again took in all my printed material. We are fairly certain that Cavalier had SM based on the severity of the symptoms. My vet referred the client to a neurologist and never heard anything again. We suspect the dog was put down as the owner was having a very difficult time managing the severe symptoms.

The problem is that all of this discussion is done quietly in private telephone calls and conversations with two or three people. And most of these people have been "in" Cavaliers for quite some time versus being new pet owners who are still mostly in the dark about all Cavalier health problems, esp. SM. I'd love to see a local meeting or fun match have an open forum, but I'm not holding my breath. There are no local breeders who MRI. (One of the reasons that I would never get a puppy from a local breeder, but I digress.)

I seriously thought about taking my youngest (age 6) to Auburn for a $600 MRI just for statistical/research purposes (I would have paid out of my pocket). But since Dr. Axlund has gone to Ohio, there isn't any neurologist who has a lot of experience with Cavaliers and SM at either Auburn or UGA. And I don't know that they are still doing the $600 deal at this time. There are two neurologists in Atlanta.....but I wouldn't spend the money on an MRI unless someone very experienced did it. That means we are stuck with going to North Carolina or Florida, where there is experience with SM in Cavaliers. To me, there is just no point in using a neurologist who hasn't "been there, done that." (Look at Rod's website which lists all neurologists and points out those with SM experience.) Actually, my brother lives in Ohio, so I would probably go visit him and do it in Ohio if I had a compelling reason to need a neurology consult/possible MRI. Fortunately, I don't have a compelling reason. And I plan to keep it that way by being extremely careful! In contrast, we have a lot of good resources here for heart and eye and other problems.

There are a ton of pet Cavaliers in Atlanta. The tip of the SM iceberg is just sticking up out of the water - in a few years, the local scene will be quite different.

Pat
 
Pat, you might be interested in talking to the people involved in this new griffon SM project at U of Georgia:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/hospital/smallanimal/neurology/syringomyelia.php

It is a collaborative project with Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler:

The Neurology Service announces a new study funded by the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) study of Syringomyelia in Brussels Griffon/Griffon Bruxellois dogs

*snip*

The study is in collaboration with Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler in the UK, world-renowned for their pioneering work in this disease in Cavalier King Charles spaniels over the last 10 years. Their preliminary investigations in Europe and Australia with Brussels Griffon breed groups have shown the need for this study. Indeed, this work has encouraged many Brussels Griffon clubs and groups all over the world to financially support further work, and all the veterinarians involved in this venture are extremely grateful for this.
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LorifromGA said:
This is just outrageous! I can't believe the clubs are sticking their heads in the sand about such an important issue. It sounds like a "repress and deny" strategy. Breeders--and certainly the people who buy their puppies--have a right to know this information. :mad:

Lori
Click to expand...

I don't know any "club" that is sticking their heads in the sand. All the clubs I belong to have given money and many of their members have given blood samples and MRI's to researchers.
 
I am glad to see this topic come up. I, myself have wondered about it. In discussing it with my breeder, she says she has never seen it in all her 15 years of breeding cavaliers in any of her dogs. They all live in her house with her, so they are not outside or kenneled away from her where she wouldn't be able to observe them throughout the day and see it. I have been to her house on several occasions where I spent several hours each time, so I was able to see how her dogs live with her (all 40 of them!) and observe them at rest and play.

She is very aware of it, and also of some of the scandals with affected dogs showing and winning titles despite being symptomatic in the ring. She hesitates to do anything drastic to her line since she seems fortunate to have healthy dogs with healthy hearts (for example, Lizzie's mom is 5 and heart clear, and Lizzie's dad is 6 and heart clear with heart clear grandparents until age 9!), and she isn't changing her breeding tactics to give in to the morphing head shape of cavaliers that she sees in the ring that now seems to be in favor with many judges since she wonders how much of that is tied into the genetics of SM.

It is unfortunate that low cost scanning isn't available here in the US.
 
Karlin - I know about that study at UGA, but I have almost no extra time to do much of anything that I don't have a personal need to accomplish so I haven't investigated. And I have totally disconnected from the "official" local and national Cavalier scene.

Sandy - I agree with you that the US national clubs are well aware and are interested in pursuing research, etc., but I don't think that has "filtered down" to the local club/show arena here.

Lori and Bandit's mom (I don't think I know your name!) I am pretty sure that I've "figured out" who your breeders are (first initials G and M respectively??) and they are both well aware of SM. We have some mutual friends. I agree 100% about the problem in our area with no low cost MRI possibilities and even more importantly, no access to experienced neuros in our area at ANY price. What makes me terrified and furious are some of the local dogs used widely that are quite suspect. Again, you won't see me buying any puppies from anyone around here. It's a complete crap shoot - and an unlucky roll of the dice would be a disaster for me emotionally and financially. Not gonna go there.

Pat
 
It is one thing for a club to give money to SM research and collect DNA samples. That is the easy part. The problem is that many Cavalier breeders think those two things are all they have to do, and that they can sit back and continue breeding as they have in the past for the several months or even years before the gene research concludes. And then, hopefully, the gene wizards will figure out how to take their forceps and pluck out the offending genes from the breeding stock, so that the breeders' problem gets solved.

It reminds me of MVD. The attack on MVD in Cavaliers was (and remains) two-fold. One step has been the gene research and other research delving into the causes of the disorder. Most all Cavalier breeders have been content to sit back and let that research go on. The other step -- taken only by a tiny handful of Cavalier breeders -- is to faithfully follow the MVD breeding protocol -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm That protocol has been a bug-a-boo for most breeders because it directly and majorly impacts their breeding programs. So, as noted above, most breeders have ignored it. They might test their stock, but they don't wait to find out if the stock's parents are MVD-clear at 5 years, and they don't wait until the stock itself is MVD-clear at 2.5 years. Instead, they ignore the MVD status of the stock's parents and they start breeding the stock at 2 years or even younger.

A big distinction between MVD and SM is the cost of the tests. Another is the less likelihood that any of the breeder's stock will pass the MRI exam without at least Chiari-like malformation. So, we have breeders content to contribute money and DNA to SM research, and proceed merrily with their breeding programs, ignoring the SM breeding protocol -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm
 
RodRussell said:
It is one thing for a club to give money to SM research and collect DNA samples. That is the easy part. The problem is that many Cavalier breeders think those two things are all they have to do, and that they can sit back and continue breeding as they have in the past for the several months or even years before the gene research concludes. And then, hopefully, the gene wizards will figure out how to take their forceps and pluck out the offending genes from the breeding stock, so that the breeders' problem gets solved.

It reminds me of MVD. The attack on MVD in Cavaliers was (and remains) two-fold. One step has been the gene research and other research delving into the causes of the disorder. Most all Cavalier breeders have been content to sit back and let that research go on. The other step -- taken only by a tiny handful of Cavalier breeders -- is to faithfully follow the MVD breeding protocol -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm That protocol has been a bug-a-boo for most breeders because it directly and majorly impacts their breeding programs. So, as noted above, most breeders have ignored it. They might test their stock, but they don't wait to find out if the stock's parents are MVD-clear at 5 years, and they don't wait until the stock itself is MVD-clear at 2.5 years. Instead, they ignore the MVD status of the stock's parents and they start breeding the stock at 2 years or even younger.

A big distinction between MVD and SM is the cost of the tests. Another is the less likelihood that any of the breeder's stock will pass the MRI exam without at least Chiari-like malformation. So, we have breeders content to contribute money and DNA to SM research, and proceed merrily with their breeding programs, ignoring the SM breeding protocol -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm
Click to expand...

Rod-- no it isn't easy to get people to donate money, time, MRI results and blood samples.
My breeding program has all but ground to a complete stop due to the lack of older males with good health reports. It has becoming too difficult to lose this much money doing all the tests for the love of the breed. We (yes our little local club) had an SM seminar that was given by neurologist, he didn't have the answer to the SM problem-- didn't know how long it would take for researchers to get an answer. So we asked him, do we stop breeding until "THE" answer is found. He said an emphatic NO. Believe it or not--- breeders don't want to breed ill dogs.

That being said, my first cavaliers dam turned 14 today.... Kissy is active and lovely -- Amen.
 
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WoodHaven said:
Believe it or not--- breeders don't want to breed ill dogs.

That being said, my first cavaliers dam turned 14 today.... Kissy is active and lovely -- Amen.
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Happy birthday to Kissy. A Cavalier reaching 14 is always a memorable thrill, even if the dog does not realize it.

As for breeders not wanting to breed ill dogs, I disagree, at least when it comes to MVD. I have come across far too many Cavalier breeders who either don't test for MVD murmurs before they breed, or test too early and breed too early and otherwise don't follow the breeding protocol. There may be a difference between the breeder who does not test, so that she may claim to be ignorant (or in denial), and the breeder who breeds knowing that her stock has murmurs, but there is not much of a difference between those two types of breeders.

And then, of course, there are the other horror stories, like the flat-coated bitch which is still being bred even though all but one of her offspring have died of cancer.
 
Pat said:
Lori and Bandit's mom (I don't think I know your name!) I am pretty sure that I've "figured out" who your breeders are (first initials G and M respectively??) and they are both well aware of SM. We have some mutual friends.
Pat
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Pat--sent you a PM.

Thanks!

Lori
 
Pat said:
Lori and Bandit's mom (I don't think I know your name!) I am pretty sure that I've "figured out" who your breeders are (first initials G and M respectively??) and they are both well aware of SM.
Pat
Click to expand...


Hi Pat, nope, that wouldn't be right. I sent you a PM. She isn't from Atlanta, but farther upstate near Toccoa, originally from Florida.

check your PM's (y)
 
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