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Head Rubbing on floor and itchy ears

BrooklynMom

Well-known member
Hi all,
So, I already have the vet on top of this little mystery I am going to explain, but I am hoping maybe you guys have some thoughts too (or maybe even a suggestion if it sounds familiar).

So...after Brooklyn was spayed, and we took the cone off, she began to (way more than normal) rub her head/ears on the floor, scratch at them and generally enjoyed us rubbing them way more than normal. I thought "ear infection", so off to the vet. But, she couldn't find any sort of infection. She said her ears were "sort of pink", but not anything to signify an infection. Seeing as Brooklyn has already been on a round of antibiotics about 2 months ago for her itchy skin (if you guys remember, she was going at her right leg and back leg like crazy), so they didn't want to dose her with antibiotics again. But the vet though, this might be an allergy since there are no signs of infection...so she gave her a round of low dose steroids to see if that would help. But it didn't. She is still ear rubbing and head rubbing on the floor a lot...way more than normal.

I am clueless. The vet is calling me back about what we should think to do next, so in the mean time, I was wondering if you all had any thoughts. I think the leg/foot biting and itching might be related the head dragging/itching on the floor, but who knows. She has laid off her leg a lot (that is great) still at the paws sometimes, but I can just tell she is uncomfortable in her ear/head area and just always pushing it into the floor or using her paws.

Anyway, if anyone thinks of something we might have missed, just let me know! I wonder if it still might be an allergy...hummm.
P.S. Brooky is now 7 months.

Thanks!!
 
Mmm.. No idea. Probably allergies I would think.. Hopefully it will go away..
Head rubbing and itching and footbiting are also symptoms of SM but Brooky is too young and it came on pretty sudden, but I still thought I'd mention it.
 
Have you changed her shampoo? Maybe the the cone had something to do with it? I know Holly couldn't stand to have it on.
Has she been sitting in the sun? One of my cats loves to sit in the sun and her ears go all pink and sensitive, but that's the cat.
I have always used a natural shampoo by dermcare even with my last Cav he always used to get itchy especially in Summer and I had to used the one by dermcare that you had to leave on for 10 mins then wash off.
That's all I can think of. Sorry I can't help. Hopefully your vet will find out what's causing it.
 
Mmm.. No idea. Probably allergies I would think.. Hopefully it will go away..
Head rubbing and itching and footbiting are also symptoms of SM but Brooky is too young and it came on pretty sudden, but I still thought I'd mention it.


Sorry, but SM can show up in puppies younger than Brooklyn, and with the symptoms that have been described I would be asking to be referred to a Neurologist that knows about SM and PSOM.
 
I would agree with Margaret.

If your vet has been unable to find any other source for this, then as Margaret says, I would see a vet neurologist, ideally one familiar with SM. There is one woman in Sydney as I recall. I can check to find out who it is. If steroids didn't help then I would think it almost certainly cannot be allergies. The single most common misdiagnosis -- often for years -- for SM in cavaliers is allergies, meaning many do not get the treatment they need.

Clare Rusbridge has seen puppies as young as 12 weeks with SM, but anecdotally, I know people (including members of this forum) who have said their puppies had symptoms at younger than that, as early as 7-8 weeks. Many dogs would be diagnosed at younger than a year.

If this is SM, you would definitely want to have it diagnosed now, as this gives you the greatest number of options to consider. It is not a diagnosis any of us wishes to receive, but the earlier you know, the better for making decisions. There are many of us here who have gone through this process and have cavaliers with SM (I have three of my five :( ). It is a problem now endemic in the breed. People here can offer lots of support and advice if you find you are in the situation so many of us find ourselves in, managing dogs with this condition.

There is a lot of info in the Health Library section and pinned to the top of the SM/MVD forum. Also see www.smcavalier.com, www.cavalierhealth.org for some basics. You might find it especially helpful to view the videos on my site, www.smcavalier.com, as you can see cavaliers with a wide range of symptoms and can compare those with what you are seeing with Brooklyn.

The most detailed information is on Dr Clare Rusbridge's website. She is the leading researcher into this condition: http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/faq.htm
 
U know what dawned on me that having the collar around her neck couldve set sm symptoms of... Having anything around the neck area thats tight.
 
Sorry, but SM can show up in puppies younger than Brooklyn, and with the symptoms that have been described I would be asking to be referred to a Neurologist that knows about SM and PSOM.
Margaret, yes:
I guess i knew that since reptigirls flash is younger than a year and i remember a discussion on this fron a long time ago, but i just didnt really wanna say it i guess since i dont know enough or feel qualified to alarm brooklyns mom. I also just dont wanna accept it unconciously :(. Brooklyn is so innocent and young!!!!
 
Mmm.. No idea. Probably allergies I would think.. Hopefully it will go away..
Head rubbing and itching and footbiting are also symptoms of SM but Brooky is too young and it came on pretty sudden, but I still thought I'd mention it.

Remember Flash came to me at 12 weeks showing almost those exact symptoms... They also progressed very rapidly....some days he would just wake up with new and stronger symptoms... It was not SM yet but very sever CM... I would recommend a neurologist visit...
 
Remember Flash came to me at 12 weeks showing almost those exact symptoms... They also progressed very rapidly....some days he would just wake up with new and stronger symptoms... It was not SM yet but very sever CM... I would recommend a neurologist visit...

Yes i remembered read the post above yours
 
Margaret, yes:
I guess i knew that since reptigirls flash is younger than a year and i remember a discussion on this fron a long time ago, but i just didnt really wanna say it i guess since i dont know enough or feel qualified to alarm brooklyns mom. I also just dont wanna accept it unconciously :(. Brooklyn is so innocent and young!!!!

I know what you mean. It is horrible to think this can happen to such young puppies.

I hesitated when I first read BrooklynMom's post and rather hoped that someone else would suggest her little girl should be checked for SM.

I really do not like being the bearer of bad news and it does feel so unkind to put such a worrying idea in someone's head.
I very much hope that Brooklyn's symptoms are due to something else.

The truth is though, if a cavalier has SM it will not go away. The owner will have to face the diagnosis at some time and it is better that it is done before the little dog has suffered long periods of discomfort without any pain relief being prescribed.

I have had so many phone calls from owners who spent two years or more watching their cavalier suffer while their vet checked for allergies and orthopaedic problems.

Contrary to what many cavalier owners think, SM is not a rare condition. In the last few years it has become apparent that it is widespread through the breed.

Over half the young cavaliers that are scanned through the low cost centres in the UK have SM. They may not have symptoms ( or at least no symptoms that their sometimes un-informed owners would recognise ) but most of them will do as they get older. It is a deteriorating condition.

It is not only widespread through the breed, it is widespread throughout the world. All cavaliers originated in England; some countries imported SM genes along with their earliest cavaliers, many others are still importing it in unscanned stud dogs from UK kennels that have produced SM.
 
Unfortunately, I have a dog that showed SM symptoms well before the age of 1, and thanks to then watching the PDE programme and joining this forum, I knew that the symptoms I was seeing were going to be diagnosed as SM. :-X
Like has been written earlier, the sooner you can get Brooklyn to a neurologist the better. :xfngr:
 
Thanks everyone. My heart is through my stomach right now :( I appreciate everyone comments though...to be honest, I have been having this fleeting feeling in my gut that these were SM type symptoms, but I kept saying to myself "your crazy, stop thinking everything your dog does is an SM sign" (I think all of us have had the crazy SM paranoia before).
So I guess that is why I asked you guys and unconsciously left the question open ended. I think I was scared to even ask about SM.

Okay, so a few questions about this:

First, can a dog still get SM if their parents are MRI cleared? As well as some of her grandparents etc? I put in so much effort on health standards from the get go, but who knows now.

Second...I took out pet insurance this weekend. Obviously, I need to wait until this goes through and the 21 day waiting period passes before I can do anything as I know that if any SM talk or investigations whatsoever go on my file, the Insurance (we took out PetPlan) will not cover it, ever. So, can I wait a month to further pursue this? Is that safe for Brooky? *If* this does have anything to do with SM, I know I am going to need this health insurance for her but I also don't want to keep her in any discomfort related to whatever this is.

And lastly...Karlin, would you mind sending me the name of the neurologist in Sydney if you can find it? I am not sure yet how much my vet knows about SM, but when we chat I will have a better idea. She is an amazing vet, so I know she will help guide me along this path even if she is not an expert.

Obviously this might not be SM too, but like you guys said, I don't want to be naive either if something is wrong and I can help her sooner rather than later. I am going to start taking video of her doing her "symptoms" too...someone mentioned that on another thread for their dog (sorry, can't remember who), but it's a great idea for any investigations moving forward even if it has nothing to do with SM, so I will get on that.

Thank you all...I appreciate your thoughts, honesty and support.
 
My heart goes out to you for even having to investigate this!

I know that sometimes I see little things that I wonder about... I think we all do have those moments and know that eventually it will truly point in that direction. It also could be PSOM or other inner ear issue.... and pray that it will be something more readily treated than SM. I just want you to know that I care about what happens to you and Brooklyn... you are in the right place for sure to get support. I am always willing to lend a shoulder when needed.

I do not know all the answers to your questions except that parents can be MRI clear and the offspring get SM. It has happened to two Cavs that I know about. One ended up suing breeder because the MRI was fake....no kidding. The other case the parents really were clear... but it still surfaced when the dog was 4 years old.
 
Oh my, I thought SM as soon as I started reading. None of us want to think that direction, and I know you are probably a bit stressed over this.

I know you've mentioned the need for the insurance should something big happen. And if that is the case, you will certainly need to wait out the 30 period. At this point it only sounds like she is head rubbing, correct? If you do anything before that 31st day, it will be considered preexisting, and not covered.

Keeping you and Brooklyn in my thoughts and prayers as you wait this out and decide what to do.
 
Make sure the insurance covers MVD and SM for starters.. I think it's probably ok to wait 30 days before going to the neuro. SO sorry you have to go through this...
It's very stressful, I know.... It could indeed be PSOM related too, best case scenario! Keep in mind , she doesn't have to have SM to show symptoms, it could just be CM, and honestly it's hard to find a cav that doesn't have CM these days it seems, but of course far from all of them are symptomatic. Hope this gets sorted out soon. We are all here for you. I've been through the same thing and everyone was so supportive...
 
:hug:Our dogs really do seem to be twins :( I also took out insurance recently because of suspected SM. I think it has been a month already but I so scared to go and pursue looking into SM. I know I should do it soon but I haven't been able to bring myself to do it yet. Maybe when your insurance goes through we can do it together :hug:
 
Okay...so here is a video I just took of her doing her "head thing" just to share for visual support.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32200327@N02/5803394049

Thanks all for your thoughts, support and input. Anyone else who can answer any of my additional questions above would be so appreciated. Poor little pup. I am prepared to just make her happy and comfortable, whatever the diagnosis...big or small!

Her mama (me!) has had her share of health issues and hospital visits over the past year, so it isn't anything my hubby and I can't handle. I just want to make sure I am taking all the right steps to ensure her happiness and best health...and thanks to this board, I have educated myself to be able to do this the best I know how.

I am thinking I need to pause and wait for insurance to kick in before anything else moves forward. Does anyone think this is a bad idea...to wait? I don't want to put her in harms way, but I also want to make sure (if I can) that insurance is in full force before I investigate further.

Thanks everyone, you are making all this stress and worry much easier on me. I am so grateful for the support.
 
Hi Brooklyn's Mom! I am sorry you are even having to think about SM/CM, such a dreadful thing!
I watched your video of Brooklyn (absolutely adorable pup by the way) and was wondering if she was washed, combed, or eaten anything prior to the head rubbing? Part of it looks just like crazy puppy stuff but I do see it appears in excess which is why the concern.
I noticed similar things with my Jack when he was 6 months old (this is all in retrospect, at the time I didn't think much of his "odd behaviors") I didn't address it with a neurologist until he was over a year:( I know it makes me sound horrible but I didn't know about much if anything about this disease and I also think I was in a bit of denial! Insurance wasn't an issue, as he was covered fully at 3 months old. Anyhow Jack was MRI'd and found to have mild-mod CM with ? pre-syrinx. He has now been on meds for over a year and we are taking it one day at a time.

As for your insurance, that is a tough one. I know how extremely expensive this disease can be and would be in credit card debt had I not had his insurance . I would see if you could wait it out, especially if you cannot seriously consider caring for an CM/SM dog without it and would end up becoming financially drained. THat would be bad for both you and Brooklyn's future. Of course you don't want her to suffer for 21 days so I would watch her closely to ensure that overall she is managing. I know others might say I am being cruel but many (myself ) have had dogs showing similar signs and waited months to seek neuro help (just because we didnt know better and were in denial) and I don't think 21 days as long as nothing worsens will make her prognosis any different should it turn out to be SM.
P.S make sure your regular vet isn't documenting any of these possible SM signs in her notes because insurance will most likely ask for all her medical records on your first claim and they may use that as an excuse that it was pre-existing:mad:
 
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