• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Where did they come from

pippa

Well-known member
Are we allowed to say where our little dogs come from or from what lines. I would love to know if anyone in Ireland or elsewhere has a relative of either of my dogs.

Although I got them from the same kennel Gus belonged to the breeders son-in -law and pippin was bred by the lady herself so they are not related in any way.
 
We could stick to the really well known names. I bet you that nearly everyone has a Kindrum in their pooch's pedigree!! :lol: :lol:
 
Well, i'll go ahead and start since I just had Molly's Pedigree paper out the other day.

My Molly is:

House of Leighton HRH Molly (US)

Parents------>Just Chubby (IRE) & Mooremannor Hero Lass (IRE)

Grandparents------>
Father's Side: Ballymacad Portwine & My Mollie

Mothers side: Princes-Boy Davey & Paddies Lady

Great Grandparents----->
Fathers Side: Stairways Bucks Fizz of Ballymacad, Ballymacad Magic Ruby & Redrose Blooms.

Mothers Side: Prince of Monroe & Mary President, Boolabawn Sir Oak & Tessa Dahl


With the exception of Molly's parents who are AKC registered, all of the other names say IKC, does that stand for Irish Kennel Club?
 
Should some of the names go back to/be the same as? None of mune do :yikes
I am more worried now that this woman we got him from isn't kosha
Here's Charlies pedigree (if that's what it is)!!!!
Sire=Frosty nights
Dam=Lil Springtime Lady
Grandparents (Sire side) Sire=Mr Fix It
Dam=Heavenly Scent
Grandparents (Dam side) Sire=Fagan Fairies
Dam=Vanilla Ice
G.Grandparents Bacardi Blues
Pandoras box
Sweet Marshmallows
Angelica Surprise
Mercedes Melody
Geneveve Wave
Casper Treasures
Crystal Snowflake

Do you think we've been ripped off?
 
Holly's pedigree includes the following affixes: Drumadowney, Lyneka, Turretbank, Rheinvelt, Sorata and a host of others I can't remember off the top of my head.

Little ruby's pedigree is similar on the sire's side (Drumadowney Tinky Winky), and the dam's is mostly Charterwood, but there's lots of Sorata in there too, as well as names I don't recognise- Royal Victoria, for example!

From a showing perspective, both have excellent pedigrees for conformation. From a health perspective, Holly's ancestors are often siblings of dogs in the long lived lists, while a number of the ruby's ancestors are actually named as dogs who made it past five without MVD, so hopefully that bodes well.

I saw the breeder yesterday and he was tremendously impressed with how Holly has developed- said she was a fantastic bitch and it was a shame she'd been spayed as he'd have liked to have gotten a litter off her!

And hands up everyone who has Albert(o)? of Kindrum! :D :D I've been reading online pedigrees lately, and the number of dogs who are descended from him are astonishing!
 
Gus has a lot of names in his, the ones that appear more often are, Ronnoc,Homerbrent and Chantiz his ancesters all seem to be from great Britain (one of them lived to be over 14 yrs old) including a GB/CH of french desent.

Pippins ancesters are mostly Trenaul and moorfields and they seem to be mostly Irish including a few IR/CH.

Neither of them seem to share any ancestery at all but they are still BROTHERS in every sense of the word.
 
I am listing only the kennels that are shown frequently on my dogs' pedigrees.

Luke & Jolly - River Oak, Turretbank, Sheeba, Lymrey

Pippin & Merry - Rosjestin, Kenmillone, Turretbank, Leelyn, Downsbank, Korraines, Gayela, Oakhaven
 
Just found out when checking online that Gus's great grandfather is pippins great ,great, great grandfather! I told them but they don't seem too excited Gus is trying to get ham down from the worktop and Pippin is going asleep. I think its great...... I need to get out more :lol:
 
Both mine have heronbank, rheinvelt, granasil and homerbrent as names in their pedigrees.

I don't think we should go ito too much detail like Lisa says as I think its against board rules to say exact breeders.
 
Busta has Homerbrent in his line - will bring their certificates in and list them all though.
 
Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names. :|
 
pippa said:
Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names. :|

The names on the pedigree are suppose to tell "who" bred the dog. That is the who point of having a kennel name. I have a Homerbrent Erica-- that tells the world that M. Coaker bred her. I believe the point of not mentioning names was because people could say negative things and this being a moderated list especially--- legal issues could insue. Sandy
 
Sandy is right -- my issue is only with having any discussion turn into personal comments about breeders, asking for recommendations, offering warnings etc in posts regarding any named breeder or kennel line. I don't mind if people offer the critical comments behind the scenes (eg thru PMs or emails). But not here.

The kennel (pedigree) names reveal the breeder, as Sandy notes. Dogs that don't have kennel prefixes or affixes tend to be the ones to worry about in a pedigree as they typically will indicate backyard breeders (non show breeders who nonetheless have been able to get proper kennel club registration -- which isn't that hard to get if you get your dogs from a registered line). That is why you can NEVER rely simply of the correct (as opposed to bogus) registries as an indication of a quality breeder or line -- though use of the bogus registries ALWAYS indictaes a backyard breeder or puppy mill! More on bogus registries: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=216

This is one way of decoding a breeder website, as to whether they are breeding properly or not. Another way is to run the supposed kennel name prefix or the parent dogs through the online pedigree databases. If not a single dog with that prefix shows up, you are almost certainly again dealing with a BYB. Online databases: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=232

Ronnoc is an Irish not English kennel; Jaspar is a Ronnoc dog. :) Ronnoc dogs are behind many of the Homerbrent, Homeranne and Salador dogs -- they had a very famous stud named Ronnoc True Luck who fathered many puppies, including one all-champion Salador litter.

As an example of the above, try running Ronnoc, Salador or Homerbrent through the online databases and you'll see lots of dogs come up. :)
 
Thanks for that Sandy. Should have known that :oops: I actually had known that some names link to breeders but didn't realise thay all do.


Karlin just started this to see if any relatives of my two were on board for a bit of interest for myself,hope I didn't offend or overstep the bounderies by asking!

By the way I did know Ronnoc was Irish Gus's mummy was a Ronnoc but I read a book on cavs written by an english author and she mentioned most of the others were english.
 
Those pedigree sites are really neat! I just checked some of Chester's relatives on the http://www.cavaliersonline.com site and I couldn't find any info on his parents but his grandparents are in there and there's ton of info on them and several generations back.

Chester's grandfather is an Irish Blenheim named Ch Dark Boyo and here's the page showing the details and his relatives: http://www.cavaliersonline.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=9957&gens=5&db=cavaliers.dbw

There's even a Homerbrent relative back in the 1970's...how cool!
 
pedigree

mollys =sire=nakalas dynamite dylon,grandsire =mareve indiana,grand dam =lady chantilly lace ----- dam=magic molly,--grand sire= nakalas dynamite dylon,---grand dam=lucky liah breeder =debbie mackenzie
 
registration

:? ive just been looking at mollys registration paper and it says the dog lovers registration club uk ltd are there different types as ive seen the green paper for the kennel club and mine is blue,charlie dosent have any papers.....
 
Ronnoc is Connor backward, BTW -- a lot of breeders run their name in reverse in the UK and Ireland. Another famous old Irish kennel was Tnegun -- Nugent backwards.

Pretty much every cavalier will eventually go back to champions and some of the well known English dogs and lines in particular, simply because they are all descended from only 6 or 7 dogs and the breed wasn't really introduced to any degree in the US until the 60s, and then mostly from an initial small range of imported English dogs, according to breed histories.

This is why the gene pool is so narrow, and also why breeding is so tricky with this breed -- because already close relatives were bred together just to develop the breed, that means the potential for genetic negatives in the breed started early on. Many cavaliers continue to be very closely line bred (eg to related dogs, with many of the same dogs appearing in the same line of one dog, and often on both dam and sire sides). The degree of relatedness in a dog -- how many of its ancestors are closely related genetically -- is called a breeding coefficient. The higher the breeding coefficient, the closer the line breeding and the higher the concentration of similar genes and to many minds, the more at risk a cavalier is of having genetic problems show. I think the recommendation is for the breeding coefficient not to be higher than around 20%. Many cavaliers are above 40% :shock:. Many breeders try to lower the breeding coefficient of their dogs by outcrossing to other lines or more distant lineages, so that the same dog isn't in the recent generations of a pedigree for example. In Sweden I believe the national CKCS club forbids close line breeding, eg of siblings or of parents and offspring. Here's more info on breeding coefficients and a link to a pedigree database that also gives coefficients for each dog, if enough information is available:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=233

At the same time, line breeding helps develop a distinct line for a breeder and a skilled breeder knows how best try to carefully select for good qualities while limiting the negative genetic effect this might have. So there's nothing intrinsically wrong with line breeding, but you need to know what you are doing.

All of this is also one of the things to watch for with puppy farm and BYB dogs. What you want are dogs from good lines in the parentage and granparents. Further back, it's not necessarily indicating anything as nearly any backyard-bred cavalier will start to hit well known lines and champions in the great grandparents or further back. Hence in the US, BYBs and brokers for BYB or puppy farm dogs typically claim their dogs are "descended from champion stock" or "descended from imported English/Irish dogs". No reputable breeder makes such claims because the claims are so meaningless.

A reputable breeder will point you to the recent generations, as proof of a strong and thoughtful breeding programme. They will be proud of all the generations but they will not try to claim champions back in the mists of time. :)

After I got my two boys from a reputable breeder I read far more and learnbed far more than I did the first time out. Now, I would be not only looking for the health clearances and the MRI status (for syringomyelia) for the dam and sire, but I'd also be interested in knowing breeding coefficients and looking for low coeficients, and would like to see really good, longlived quality dogs in close generations rather than with lots of intervening generations.

I'd also be looking for skull shapes that might not be considered 'winning' head shapes right now but which I, along with some researchers and breeders, think give a dog a much better chance of not having SM and having plenty of room for its brain. There's no scientific proof for this but I have seen some striking MRIs for affected and clear dogs.

I've been crazy for cavaliers for three years now and have seen many dogs from many lines -- and I still would not be able to pick out a really superb breed example. The fact that I couldn't do this -- though it is pretty easy to spot the poor breed examples-- and the difficulty of getting my poor head around how breeding coefficients and genetics work underlines to me the time and effort it takes to get to know the breed well enough to even consider breeding (as Bruce has pointed out, generally you want to be mentored for a couple of years before feeling ready to breed and then only with the help of a mentor). It's also why I really admire the good breeders who are so committed to geting the best possible mix of health, conformation and temperament.

On the flip side, running Irish Cavalier rescue means I see a LOT of BYB and puppy farm cavaliers as those are the majority that come in, regardless of whether they have their IKC papers (I cannot stress enough how little a good registration means outside of indicating that at least you have a better chance of having found a good breeder -- it just takes a lot of research and legwork to find a good breeder with the proper registration being the most basic starting point). Every dog is of course to be cherished, and I am not talking about any dog being 'better' than another simply because of a pedigree, but what I hope is that people will learn where to spend their money if they are buying a cavalier, and how to avoid the scammers.

I am working on a post for the library that will walk through all these kinds of things -- to help people figure out whether the things any given breeder is saying actually mean anything and to better spot the good ones. :)
 
When I was going for a cavalier I contacted the secretery of the irish CKCS club, she lives close to me and we attend the same vet.She put me in touch with someone from the club who deals with the breeders and that lady put me in touch with Gus's breeder.

I contacted that breeder again when I decided to get another cav but I think she has retired from breeding now.


Friends of mine have got cavaliers recently and from what I can gather seem to have gotton them from a BY breeder,Their colouring is not great and after she got her dog her mum decided to get one and then another member of her familygot one and has recently got another one and now has two. Seems to me no matter how often they call this breeder he has dogs ready :?

Her dog is very small and thin doesn't eat well and is extremely nervous with people and from what she tells me the other dogs are much the same. I think this is very worrying
 
Back
Top