Everybody Else's Problem

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Originally Posted by goda

Wow.And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

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There is plenty of information on the web now. When you got Luka and I got Molly there was not! We have to try and guide people in the right direction and people that get caught like us, we are here to help them. My friend has a daughter who suffers from CM, she has had decompression surgery but still has dreadful episodes, sometimes screaming with pain and it makes you want to cry listening to her. I always remember her saying "why would people breed dogs with this disease" .

The breeder who bred Molly is still churning out sick puppies, despite complaints to the KC, local authority and other organisations, I have encountered five owners with dreafully sick dogs closely related. On average she charges £600 for each puppy! This is deliberate cruelty!:mad:

Breeding dogs into a life of pain has to stop, it cannot be justified at all? We need to help raise awareness so people don't get caught. Karen is right, if you cannot afford to breed dogs so they live a healthy happy life, they should not be bred at all.

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Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby

I wont argue with you but to compare my 'opinion' to that of Hitler is pretty rude dont you think!

I bought the books and did the reaserch and yes 5 years ago when I got Ruby there wasn't much available about SM to the average Joe public but right now in 2011 when the Kennel Clucb have come up against all this there is no reason for not following protocol.
They have the information, but most choose not to take any notice.
Getting a Cavalier from a breeder whom isn;t doing everything they can to help this breed is no better than buying a puppy from a pet shop and we all know where pet shop puppies come from!


The only way this breed stands a chance is for everyone to be on the same page and agree with the research and do their very best and take responsiblity because Guess what? the way things are at the momment will result in one thing only and that is ... No Cavaliers left!

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No, I don't think it's rude, I think it's a correct description of your mentality. Newsflash, genetics are the only way to get SM. Hormonal deficiencies, dietary deficiencies can all contribute to a malformed cranium and spinal cord, as well as injury. You can MRI scan a parent to high heaven it's genetics, there are carrier genes. It's not a disease you can breed out of dogs.

Not every pet comes from a pet shop, mine came from what was a pretty reputable breeder and he still got sick. So while I won't be returning to this breeder for other reasons as well; your what I think is an elitist and flippant attitude towards Joe Public and effectively myself is hurtful on many levels.

There are vets that don't know about this disease so are they just as awful as us Joe Public?

These dogs that already exists should then just be somebody else's problem, they should be put down? I'm sorry if you feel my description of your opinion is rude but I find your opinion a little heartless and shocking.

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Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby

\If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!

There is too much information out there to play dumb these days:mad:

And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces

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That about sums up my opinion. Education is key. Both the breeders and buyers should be educating themselves about the genetic health issues of the breed, and then the breeders should be following the testing and breeding protocols.

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Originally Posted by jessie22

I am all for stopping puppymills and getting our Cavalier friends healthy and hopefully less damaged someday. But, until that happens, I'll continue to only rescue/adopt sickly, old, diseased Cavaliers.
I hope there are homes and hearts out there for our less fortunate. :)
I have 2 cavvies, Ruby who is 2 and has SM (from a mill) and my newly rescued mill-mama, Hattie. Hattie is 7ish, has a grade 4 murmur, was 32lbs when I got her (she is 25 today!) and also half of her teeth of rotten. She is the best dog I've ever met. What a loving, grateful soul!!! Please, anyone, rescue!!! It's a beautiful thing. I know puppies are great, but there's a lot of great dogs out there...
That's my tangent, sorry. Ok, yes, don't buy from a petstore. Don't suport mills!!! But, love a dog who needs you no matter where they come from. If we want more people to know how bad it really is to support "bad breeding", it looks like we need to do more to educate and stop the problem!!! :) We can all do our part to save our cavvies.


-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

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I think it's great you adopt "Somebody Else's Problem". I would be sad if there weren't people like you around.

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Originally Posted by RodRussell

That about sums up my opinion. Education is key. Both the breeders and buyers should be educating themselves about the genetic health issues of the breed, and then the breeders should be following the testing and breeding protocols.

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It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

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Originally Posted by goda

Wow. Seriously, just wow. That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

So if I can't afford to send my child to college I shouldn't have children? Should people with AIDS be put down in order to get rid of the disease? It's just us being kind?

And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

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Goda, if you are in school, it's a good thing because you have a lot to learn about Hitler. And your extrapolations are a bit far-fetched.

I don't know when you got Luka, but http://cavalierhealth.org has had in depth information about SM for nearly a decade now. So, while you are there, take a course in word-searching on the Internet.

I think there's a false basis of argument here.

It isn't as if there are huge stacks of cavalier puppies without homes where the failure to buy one single dog from a crap breeder will mean a horrible life for that dog. First off, someone will always buy available puppies, and the breeders will lower the prices til someone pays for the dogs they breed. That is why there are breeders offering cheap cavaliers. It is very cheap if you do no health testing, and your parent dogs come from poor sources. Hence there are many cheap cavaliers in want ads and online.

It is a false justification to argue 'if I do not take these dogs and buy them, then they will have no homes and may go somewhere that someone won't care for them'. It is wonderful that any dog, especially one with a long term serious illness, ends up with a loving home ready to do whatever it can. But anyone else could have given such a home, too. In my experience most people try to do their best by their dogs.

If people really want to make a difference to a single dog in need of a great home, there are plenty of rescue cavaliers needing a second chance. Irish Cav Rescue and others in Ireland have a couple right now. So does Lucky Star and club rescue in the US, and breed rescue and shelters in the UK. Knowingly supporting cruel breeding situations such as puppy farms or breeders who cannot be bothered to breed with health as a focus -- places us as individuals in a situation where we are entirely complicit in what they are doing. I do think an argument can be made to buy out breeding cavaliers at auction (though this is a difficult and controversial issue) because those are the dogs that truly suffer. Buying their puppies bred in such situations just keeps those breeding dogs in a lifetime hellhole of the mills and again, the purchase directly supports that system and enables it to continue.

There are better decisions and more effective actions any of us can take that will impact the lives of thousands of individual dogs and the breed as a whole.
This is absolutely true:

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If no one bought puppy mill dogs from today on, the current puppies would end up in rescue, and the mills would shut down, they only produce dogs for the money, if the money dried up they'd disappear.

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Likewise if, from today on, not one single puppy buyer would buy a puppy from unscanned, unhealth-tested or improperly tested parents, every breeder in this breed would either 1) sell the remainder, stop breeding, and get out of cavaliers, or 2) start doing the health tests, whether they want to or not. It is no different than any other market, If people refuse to buy what is on offer and have explicit expectations, then someone will supply what the market wants. It is simple economics.

But sadly there will not be any shortage of all nice people who will unknowingly, or knowingly but making excuses, buy the puppy shop, puppy farm/mill puppies or the puppies from the backyard breeder down the street or on the internet, or the ones from the breeders who do no health testing or very little. Hell will freeze over before there is a situation where there will not be buyers for cavalier puppies from the worst possible sources. The worst thing any of us can do who know how bad the situation is now for the breed therefore is to give those breeders money when the small number of health testing breeders so badly need support to stay in the breed. They are the best and only chance for a cavalier future. If you buy elsewhere, that is a purchase lost to a great breeder, an important statement of belief and financial support that lets all breeders know there is support and demand for properly bred cavaliers.

Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice.

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Originally Posted by goda

It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

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Goda, you are in the wrong school, if that is what you are being taught.

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Originally Posted by RodRussell

Goda, you are in the wrong school, if that is what you are being taught.

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Really I am not, you can scan parents for SM and they can be perfectly healthy and they can still produce an SM offspring. So unless you DNA test every dog you breed for the SM gene and the carrier genes, and know for certain it doesn't skip generations then you don't seem to understand how genetics work.

Most importantly not all SM is a result of genetics.

I really hope this type of mentality only applies to your dog breeding.

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Originally Posted by goda

No, I don't think it's rude, I think it's a correct description of your mentality. Newsflash, genetics are the only way to get SM. Hormonal deficiencies, dietary deficiencies can all contribute to a malformed cranium and spinal cord, as well as injury. You can MRI scan a parent to high heaven it's genetics, there are carrier genes. It's not a disease you can breed out of dogs.

Not every pet comes from a pet shop, mine came from what was a pretty reputable breeder and he still got sick. So while I won't be returning to this breeder for other reasons as well; your what I think is an elitist and flippant attitude towards Joe Public and effectively myself is hurtful on many levels.

There are vets that don't know about this disease so are they just as awful as us Joe Public?

These dogs that already exists should then just be somebody else's problem, they should be put down? I'm sorry if you feel my description of your opinion is rude but I find your opinion a little heartless and shocking.

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Yes I know that not every Cav comes from a Pet store, mine too came from a 'good' breeder at the time- her parents were both over the age of 4 and had clear hearts and eyes and all the rest and too this day SM is the only problem that she has. But 5 years ago I didnt know what it is and the first I read about it was in a Supplement in Dogs today magazine and there was a story about Carol Fowlers dog Rosie (I think but it was a few years back now) and I sat and cried because at that momment I knew she had it.

And at that momment I told myself that I wouldnt buy another puppy until everything was being done to eradicate the problem.
And since then I rescued my little man Charlie whom at 9 months of age was diagnosed with a grade 6 heart murmur and a birth defect called Mitral Vavle Displasia. He isnt covered under insurace and he costs me a small fortune but never the less I love him and will care for him until his last day.

And call me heart less all you like BUT I do every thing I can to raise money for Ruperts Fund- last year raising over £600 doing a sponsered run and this year I am arraging the production of the Ruperts Fund receipes books to be sold and in the process of writing another book to be sold along side it- I take leafelts and wear my Ruperts Fund T Shirt to every Agiity and Obedience show I go to and tell every one who is willing to listen every thing I can about this disease.

So if that makes me heartless then so be it but I see myself more as being reaslistic