Everybody Else's Problem

"Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice."

While I don't always agree with you, I can get on board with this. Breeders who choose to breed knowing their lines are affected ought to bear some responsibility.

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It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

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What? Have you studied genetics? Because if 'it's genetics', then of course it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

Clare Rusbridge:

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Why MRI screen?
To determine if the dog has syringomyelia. Early estimates of the heritability of syringomyelia suggest that it is high and consequently it should be possible to select against dogs with syringomyelia - i.e. removing dogs with syringomyelia from the breeding program will lessen the chance of syringomyelia in the offspring.

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ie: SM has a genetic basis, it is highly heritable; removing dogs with SM from breeding problems lowers the chance of SM; it is possible to breed away from the condition IF you test, over time. All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by following protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Syndrome also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on what is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it immediately if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will also close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.

Oh my God thankyou for bringing back my faith in mankind. I posted earlier today on the 'PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED thread as I was shocked that someone suggested that we may need to use puppy farm pups to breed sm out of the breed. I couldnt believe that anyone on this site would even dream of such a thing. Have they not looked at the pictures and videos on the many sites that are fighting to stop this barbaric trade? We bought our gorgeous Rossi from a kennels where we live because we were ignorant an uneducated about sm and also the puppy farm trade. Rossi has now been diagnosed with sm at 6 years of age. We think he came from a puppy farm in Wales as his breeder has a welsh name and there are dogs on his pedigree, which I know now counts for nothing, with welsh names and I NOW KNOW THAT THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF PUPPY FARMS ARE IN WALES. I too am glad that we bought Rossi and that he is being well loved and looked after, but I would never buy a dog from a kennels wiyh multiple breeds for sale ever again , or from a pet shop. It is better to save thousands of dogs than to save one. The only way to stop this torture of dogs is to stop buying their puppies. Only this will close the puppy farms for ever. PLEASE FORCE YOURSELVES TO LOOK AT THE VIDEOS AND PICTURES ON THE ANTI PUPPY FARM SITES SUCH AS 'PUPPY LOVE' AND MAKE YOUR OWN MINDS UP. iT TOOK A LOT FOR ME TO DO IT. Now I am glad I did because now my eyes are open to the suffering of these animals and I am determined to do something about it.

Goda wrote: It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out.

Actually, you can. A few years ago, Irish Setters developed a hereditary genetic condition called Night Blindness (I can't remember the proper name for it). It was very widespread in the breed. Today, virtually no Irish Setter suffers from Night Blindness. Why? Because the Irish Setter breeders set themselves the task of breeding away from the disease and were absolutely dedicated about not using affected animals for breeding and insisting that offspring suffering from the disease were not bred from. It can be done - which is why it is frustrating when some Cavalier breeders can't even be bothered to try. And why those who spend a lot of time and money trying to breed away from SM deserve our support.

There are also some promising results in Cavaliers in Holland and Griffons in Australia, where breeders have followed the advice of the researchers and have now bred several generations of dogs who are so far clear of SM. (Sorry Karlin, wrote this before I read your post!)

Kate, Oliver and Aled

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My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences.

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I love them,I just won't pay a cent to an irresponsible breeder.I work too hard for my money to see it squandered to feed someone's greed.

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That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

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And what about the mentality of the breeders who keep their dogs in small crates and pens in the barn,ankle deep in faeces?
Who take out their oldies out of the barn and the first time they see daylight is moments before they're shot in the back of the head or clubbed with an iron bar..or do their own c sections without anaesthetic?
How do you feel about supporting this industry?
Every time you buy a puppy from an unknown source you are indirectly supporting these breeders and prolonging the ordeal for the dogs in those hellholes.
Remember,that lovely mum and litter of puppies you see in someone's front room may have been put there by a puppy farmer,and the householder is telling you that they bred the litter themselves.
Buying from show breeders who refuse to test is stupid as well.Why would you do it if you had a choice?
Yes,the puppies may need our love,but I have one who needs a lot more than love to keep her going.She needs gabapentin,frusemide and Rimadyl.
The grim reality is that we can't keep her going forever and no amount of love can alter that fact.
I would rather hand over my money to a breeder who invests it back into his/her dogs.Who invests in their care and nutrition,in their physical and psychological wellbeing.A breeder who thinks enough of the people who buy their puppies,that they try to ensure that the pet they sell is as fit and healthy and it's parents screened for the common inherited illnesses.I'd prefer to show my love for the breed by dealing with a breeder who cares what happens to the puppy and who's interested in it's progress and welfare.
If people who know the facts still want to gamble on the life of their canine family member,then by all means go ahead.
Sins

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Originally Posted by goda

What really bothers me though is when I read these posts discouraging prospective Cavalier King Charles Owners from buying a puppy if it the parents haven't been MRI scanned for SM and MVD scanned for heart issues.  I understand that as responsible pet owners we should further and support the cause of responsible breeding. Really I do..

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But you look at Luka and feel disloyal because if you had supported responsible breeding you would not have bought him?

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Originally Posted by goda

My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences. I understand that the public and people in general and I am one of those people by the way. I bought my dogs because of their breed's personality, I didn't want to show my dog. I wanted a companion and someone to love and to love me when I came home. .

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I have loved the breed for thirty five years. I love them enough not to stand by and watch painful conditions spread further through the breed.
Most cavaliers, even from show bred litters end up being sold as pets. However they are bred, do not all puppies deserve the best possible chance of a long healthy pain free life?

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Originally Posted by goda

When we got Luka, he had an overbite, he grew out of it but it didn't stop me from falling in love with him and wanting to give him a happy and safe home. Even now that he is sick and costing us dearly I go without frivolous activities like movies and concerts so I can provide him with a happy home.

So here is my question, every time you discourage someone from buying a Luka because he has not been MRI scanned and MVD scanned, you are saying that the dog should be somebody else's problem..

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You may be willing to go without fun things to care for a sick dog but many people would not be willing or able to do so. What happens to that carelessly bred dog then?
If people continue to knowingly buy from bad breeders they perpetuate the misery.

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Originally Posted by goda

Is that any mindset to have when we think of this breed? Run the other way and let it be somebody else's problem?.

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Nobody is running the other way, but if breeders breed sick dogs it is actually their problem. If they cannot sell them they will stop breeding.

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Originally Posted by goda

In no way am I saying we shouldn't encourage people to scan their dogs and exhibit responsible breeding protocols but what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?.

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Nobody has a God given right to breed dogs. If you don't breed responsibly or cannot afford to do it correctly then nobody should reward you by putting money in your pocket.
Someone will know better when they are asked for certificates they cannot produce and the buyer walks away.

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Originally Posted by goda

I know education is key here, it disheartens me to read some of these posts because even if all the Cavaliers I own get SM, I know I will be there to give them the best life I can because somebody has to. If they are going to be "anyone's" problem it is mine. We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.

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We all give our SM cavaliers the best life we can, nobody here is suggesting that owners of sick cavaliers should shuffle the problem off to someone else.

I have spent years watching my SM dogs suffer. I love them but I feel they and I were robbed of years of carefree enjoyment we should have had together.

I have listened to owners crying on the phone because they have put their screaming puppy to sleep. Three year old affected cavaliers, beloved family pets, have been donated to the tissue collection.
As far as I am concerned my loyalty to my SM dogs involves trying to make sure no other dog suffers as they have done.

Nobody blames a pet owner for buying without checking on health clearances when they do not know, but to buy knowing that the breeder has not bothered means that you make it worthwhile for irresponsible breeders to cut corners and produce increasing numbers of SM affected dogs like Luka.

Why not reward the breeders that do the right things by buying from them?

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Originally Posted by Karlin

What are you talking about? Have you studied genetics? If 'it's genetics', then of COURSE it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by follwoing protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Sydorme also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on w hat is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long, long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting much support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will aslo close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.

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I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.

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Not all SM is a result of genetics.

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No, there is a tiny, tiny proportion that comes from impact injuries. That form in dogs is so rare that most vets and neurologist never will see such a case. Ask your neurologist how many impact-induced cases of SM she has seen. There is also a spinal bifida type in some breeds like Ridgebacks, but that is clearly genetic as well. SM in cavaliers is widespread, the current genetics research already clearly shows high heritability, and I do not know anyone who seriously believes SM in cavaliers is caused only by some outside factor.

You have really not absorbed much here I guess. You seem to be arguing that breeders should not aim for the best health possible because it discriminates against dogs that are poorly bred and cheaper to buy -- logic I cannot understand. Or to put it another way -- you seem to be seeking an excuse for the fact that you clearly bought two puppies from a very poor breeder at a cheap price precisely because they were not doing any significant health testing -- the prices you paid are bargain basement for cavaliers, more typical of people like the Washington-based Claire Simmons, convicted of fraud and charged many times with animal cruelty.

No one here would ever say anyone shouldn't love any dog, of any sort, pure or mix, rescue or from a great breeder -- but supporting poor breeders is not 'discrimination' :sl*p: -- buying from them is cruel to every breeding dog they own, the puppies they produce and the future of the entire breed (and Luka, for that matter, who might not have been born with this condition had the breeder scanned the parents). No breeder will ever be able to guarantee health but a lot more can be done by breeders and puppy buyers like you and all here to ensure a better standard of health.

But as you seem to wish to be removed from the board, I have done so. Best of luck with Luka.

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Originally Posted by goda

I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.

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This mentality is of breeding not 'the perfectly healthy' dog but maybe just a future free from pain?

I for one wouldn't bewith out Ruby as she has taught me a lot and got me involved in the issues around SM but really, really should she have to suffer for the rest of her life just so I can increase my knowledge about something?

And what wrong with wanting a healthy dog?

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Originally Posted by goda

... I really hope this type of mentality only applies to your dog breeding.

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At least I have a mentality.