Back from Stone Lion....

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Originally Posted by Karlin

Absolutely agree with basic points, Anne but Margaret offers the correct context: NO ONE should rely on the fact that a breeder is scanning or even sending in the consequent information to researchers as a badge of good health focused breeding practice.

Lots and lots of breeders in the UK and increasing numbers in the US, Holland, Australia, Finland etc now go to low cost scanning clinics. Far fewer make responsible breeding decisions on that basis. And FAR too many breeders are scanning UNDERAGE dogs, getting a good result and then using that as the basis for their 'clear' claims for a dog. These are people who do not then rescan at breeding age so their so-called 'grades' and 'clears' are *meaningless*.


Buyers need to be able to talk to breeders directly, and actually see the certs -- ideally the ORIGINALS while visiting the breeder, given that we have had an example already here of one puppy buyer going to a breeder who claimed to scan and cardiac test and could clearly see the breeder had used a cert for some other dog, whited-out the name of the scanned/tested dog, and written in a new dog's name.

It is fantastic to find a truly health focused breeder that actually uses responsibly the information they get from scanning their dogs at *appropriate ages*. And especially those who scan or rescan older dogs to get the most meaningful and useful information about their dogs and their lines. :)

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I agree and thought that was a given to ask for the certificates and age etc. I think it's important, personally, to get involved and research as much as possible. Someone has said this to me and I say it all the time, "It's not the breeder, but the breeding". You have to look at all of that.

I have said before that even if Rod Russell was a breeder, I would not just assume that based on what all he goes on about health (sorry Rod), I would still do dilligence and want to see certificates, parents, meet him etc.

The point of symptomatic CM cavaliers have been brought up that based on Charlie's scan alone he could be considered an "A". This topic has been talked about before and I don't want to go into all that, but at some point we have to trust the researchers, breeders, etc. amd go further and meet the parents etc.

So yes I agree with Margaret that you need to see the certificate but I would go further like you said Karlin and meet the breeder and parents face to face.

Firstly let me say how glad I am to know that Ruby hasn't got any worse. I wish her a long and pain free life.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but I do wish the practice of breeder bashing would stop. Several people do it, some never having bred a dog themselves and of course none of them are vets.

I used to be a hobby breeder and was always proud of each and every one of my pups, I loved and still love all my dogs too. I don't understand why I should be demonised because I enjoy show competition with some of my dogs either. I can't speak for all breeders or exhibitors but over the years I have got to know many quite well, including visiting their homes and meeting all their dogs.

In all this time I can honestly say that I have only come across one or two at the most breeder/show people who have not loved and cared for their dogs as carefully and passionately as I still do. A few of the people I know have been truly surprised and shocked when told that their dogs have SM. I am one of them. The shock at finding Rebel was affected was profound. As my friends would do, I told everyone concerned with Rebel's breeding what the scan results were so that they could alter their breeding programmes or monitor related dogs as required. They were all grateful for the information.

It seems to me that breeder and exhibitor bashing gets worse and worse by the day. Even vets seem to be affected - now Dr Rusbridge seems to have latched on to it. I think I am speaking for many here. I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Dr Rusbridge at any time. Therefore I am not in a position to judge her methods or procedures, so there is no way I would comment on either. Would it not be possible for the lady to give me and the rest of us the benefit of her doubt when we say that our dogs have been asymptomatic and are astonished at the diagnosis. I say me and not just us, because these people are my friends, hurt them and I feel their pain too.

It has been said many times before, but if the breed is in as much trouble as some believe, then shouldn't we all be working together to try to put things right?

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Originally Posted by ByFloSin

Firstly let me say how glad I am to know that Ruby hasn't got any worse. I wish her a long and pain free life.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but I do wish the practice of breeder bashing would stop. Several people do it, some never having bred a dog themselves and of course none of them are vets.

I used to be a hobby breeder and was always proud of each and every one of my pups, I loved and still love all my dogs too. I don't understand why I should be demonised because I enjoy show competition with some of my dogs either. I can't speak for all breeders or exhibitors but over the years I have got to know many quite well, including visiting their homes and meeting all their dogs.

In all this time I can honestly say that I have only come across one or two at the most breeder/show people who have not loved and cared for their dogs as carefully and passionately as I still do. A few of the people I know have been truly surprised and shocked when told that their dogs have SM. I am one of them. The shock at finding Rebel was affected was profound. As my friends would do, I told everyone concerned with Rebel's breeding what the scan results were so that they could alter their breeding programmes or monitor related dogs as required. They were all grateful for the information.

It seems to me that breeder and exhibitor bashing gets worse and worse by the day. Even vets seem to be affected - now Ms Rusbridge seems to have latched on to it. I think I am speaking for many here. I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Ms Rusbridge at any time. Therefore I am not in a position to judge her methods or procedures, so there is no way I would comment on either. Would it not be possible for the lady to give me and the rest of us the benefit of the doubt when we say that our dogs have been asymptomatic and are astonished at the diagnosis. I say me and not just us, because these people are my friends, hurt them and I feel their pain too.

It has been said many times before, but if the breed is in as much trouble as some believe, then shouldn't we all be working together to try to put things right?

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Please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong . You are saying.

BUT IF THR BREED IS IN AS MUCH TROUBLE AS SOME BELIEVE.
Don't you believe that the Cavalier breed is in that much trouble?

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Originally Posted by ByFloSin

I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Ms Rusbridge at any time.

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Surely it would be courteous to give her the correct title of Dr Rusbridge?

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Originally Posted by Sabby

Please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong . You are saying.

BUT IF THR BREED IS IN AS MUCH TROUBLE AS SOME BELIEVE.
Don't you believe that the Cavalier breed is in that much trouble?

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We know that *SOME* people have no hope and want to give up on the breed. I have heard people say that. I am not one of those and do want to put my faith in the breeders working with researchers (DR. Rusbridge and others) and with puppy buyers and pet owners supporting them. I have been said I live in a dream world but without us supporting these breeders (ones working to help the breed) who else will we turn to? Might as well give up.

Nicely said Flo and I'm sorry I answered a question. I just want to say no matter what one believes or thinks, I think we all agree that this is not a condition we want others to go through.

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Originally Posted by anniemac

We know that *SOME* people have no hope and want to give up on the breed. I have heard people say that. I am not one of those and do want to put my faith in the breeders working with researchers (DR. Rusbridge and others) and with puppy buyers and pet owners supporting them. I have been said I live in a dream world but without us supporting these breeders (ones working to help the breed) who else will we turn to? Might as well give up.

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I know *Some* people that believe Cavaliers should not be bred any more, they quite truthfully say that it is the dogs that suffer the actual pain.

I greatly respect these people and I cannot argue with what they say. We may succeed in breeding away from CMSM, but a lot more cavaliers will be born to suffer while we try. We may not succeed and the suffering may increase. I really struggle with the ethics of this.

I have not been able to bring myself to give up on the breed , in fact I have a bitch in whelp at the moment, but even now I am not sure that this is the right thing to be doing.

Let me be quite clear about this, we may 'love the breed' but the truth is we keep producing these little dogs for our own gratification, because they fulfill a need in us, we do not breed them for their own sake.

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Originally Posted by Margaret C

I know *Some* people that believe Cavaliers should not be bred any more, they quite truthfully say that it is the dogs that suffer the actual pain.

I greatly respect these people and I cannot argue with what they say. We may succeed in breeding away from CMSM, but a lot more cavaliers will be born to suffer while we try. We may not succeed and the suffering may increase. I really struggle with the ethics of this.

I have not been able to bring myself to give up on the breed , in fact I have a bitch in whelp at the moment, but even now I am not sure that this is the right thing to be doing.

Let me be quite clear about this, we may 'love the breed' but the truth is we keep producing these little dogs for our own gratification, because they fulfill a need in us, we do not breed them for their own sake.

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I was not pointing out anyone in particular. I think no matter what the future holds with the cavalier, cm/sm will continue on. That is why we still need breeders or even pet owners whoever to work with researchers to hopefully develop a DNA test or understand more and not just for the sake of this breed.

If people in the future who want to go to an outcross path, I still think that a DNA test will be valuable. I honestly just want to have people supporting the researchers and many of this research does come from in the past mris and dna from cavaliers. Now they want other breeds but we have to continue to help which I know you do personally with the cavalier collection scheme.

That's all I'm saying

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Let me add and we all do and have done by supporting ruperts fund.

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It is heart breaking continually encountering people who have terrible tales of what has or is happening to their precious companion/soul mate. The Cavaliers are such a special beautiful sweet dog, every time you hear of another little soul suffering this excruciating unimaginable pain and the unsuspecting owner at a loss of what to do seeing their cherished companion suffer, makes my heart sink. Some owners do not recognise the symptoms their dog is suffering or cannot afford medication, so these poor dogs are living in hell!
I feel passionately that we all have to work together and support the researchers and hope the breeders will try and do what is right. If they don’t, the breed is doomed if it isn’t already!

Cavalier Matters has taken stands at various events fundraising and providing support to pet owners. Most of the visitors to the stands have or had serious health issues with their Cavaliers. It is quite rare to hear of a Cavalier reaching old age without a serious health problem.
If people believe this breed problem is not that bad, they need to get out into the real world and see what is going on.