RodRussell
Well-known member
UK researchers report results of questionnaires on neuropathic pain in CM/SM-affected cavaliers. http://bit.ly/MZXza9
Well Duh.
Only adds to the research already known that CM/SM is painful.....yes being in pain does effect your life. I'm glad for the ongoing info. The more research and real science done the better maybe it will mean the people who still need to know this will re-think???????? The whole problem is just so sad.
Melissa
This type of information serves more than just confirming the obvious. Many cavalier owners, I think, do not realize when their dogs are suffering neuropathic pain, because the symptoms of that pain are not so obvious. This study evidences other behaviors that really are due to pain, even though they may appear not to be painful.
The bottom line, I think, is that owners who are ignorant of the symptoms of neuropathic pain, and therefore minimize or ignore the pain their CM or CM/SM dogs are experiencing, are doing their dogs a major dis-service. If 95% of cavaliers really do have CM and 70% of them really do have CM/SM, then the dogs' odd behaviors (which may not appear to the owners to be associated with pain) really are caused by CM and SM pain. And those dogs deserve to be medicated.
Thanks for posting that Rod. The more I watch my own two dogs with CM/SM, the more I'm convinced that there is no such thing as a totally asymptomatic dog with the disease - we just haven't learnt to recognise all the signs of neuropathic pain. And far too many owners still think of head rubbing, for example, as a cute Cavalier characteristic, and humans squint in strong light so why shouldn't dogs do it as well? Except that most other breeds don't head rub, and dog's eyes aren't the same as ours.
And I would differ from Diane about dogs hiding pain: firstly because I don't think dogs think like that, they don't say 'I have something seriously wrong with me but in order not to distress my owners or make life difficult for myself I am going to hide any pain I feel' - hiding implies a deliberate decision; secondly, from my experience of cancer, both for myself and for a number of friends, some cancers are simply not painful - or not recognised as painful - until they are considerably advanced, which is why they are so difficult to diagnose and treat; and thirdly, both for dogs and humans, having other things to do can enable us to ignore pain, not necessarily deliberately pushing it to the back of our minds, but being so busy and absorbed in other things that we don't think about it. As far as I know, Oliver never shows any signs of a headache when he is running round the park off-lead with his head down enjoying all the smells. His headaches come into consciousness when he is lying down dozing, with nothing to distract him.
Kate, Oliver and Aled
I've seen all of these, in breeders and pet owners. In all cases, it is the dogs that suffer as they remain untreated or on too low a level of treatment (with this condition, pain management is exactly that, ongoing management and often needs adjustment.
I think vets can be particularly bad about recognising SM or listening to owners. Too many are convinced they 'never see it' and therefore refuse to see it or only with the greatest reluctance -- while the dogs suffer. There are vets I no longer used for cavalier rescue or personally because I knew this was their attitude either from things they said to me, or that I heard from others. Meanwhile these same stupid people insist with a laugh that cavaliers are 'wimps' and 'cry babies' and 'drama queens' because they will scream when given injections (needles right into the neck -- right where syrinxes form first and where most SM dogs first exhibit pain). They also too often reject any suggestion from owners that something is going on and that something might be SM, because they get annoyed that people research conditions themselves or find communities that know a condition and can advise -- often with greater expertise than most vets. ...
As difficult as it is to accept, I think we need to view 95% of the breed as probably having CM and 70% probably having SM, and therefore, the odds are that all of the cavaliers we have in our homes probably have CM/SM or just CM, both of which cause excruciating pain.
So, we need to assume that odd behaviors may well be evidence of the pain due to these disorders, and do something about it.
Alright Rod, I can see what you mean but what does that mean for someone who owns a cavalier puppy who parents were not properly health tested?
Fletcher is 4 months old, I have learned a lot about what to watch for... but what are owners like me, or all owners for that matter to do. Do you suggest I have him scanned? If so, at what age? How often? I use a vet who treats several cavalier's yes some with CM and SM and all eventually heart murmurs, she has no problems I believe sending a cavalier to a specialist IF and WHEN needed. Yes, I will take Fletcher to the vet at the blink of an eye if I ever think he is in ANY pain. As a owner of a young cavalier I believe I have done or am doing all I can for Fletcher....please if you think I am not on the right track let me know.
Sadly,I'm becoming aware of cavaliers who have died prematurely who have been on medium/ longterm NSAIDs for SM.medications can be prescribed that will ease the pain if the dog has CM or SM, but will not harmfully affect the dog if it does not have these disorders.
...I simply won't medicate a dog without very compelling clinical signs and certainly not unless it's under specialist supervision. ..
and not on the basis of one single study based on subjective questionnaires.
I think I am among the others here asking this??....
Where do we go from here? Where is the "balance" to all this TALK ?
I think each owner has to approach things in a way that both they are comfortable with BUT that recognises they own a breed of dog in which a disturbing 50% have a serious level of heart disease -- eg a murmur -- by age 5, and that virtually all will have one by age 10. And that a large study sample indicates a quarter will have syrinxes by around age 1 -- a fourth of all cavaliers! -- and that at least 70% will eventually have a syrinx. Both these conditions are serious, usually progressive conditions. Their progressive nature makes caring for affected dogs a long and changing, usually stressful and often exhausting process. That is the tragedy of the breed. Pretending it isn't so, won't change the situation for us, and I have seen situations over and again where dogs suffer because owners don't want to accept they have a dog with SM or worsening SM. So any cognisant, caring and responsible owner has to find some balance between knowing the facts and living with them without ignoring them -- or choose another breed or mix, I guess.
Some may feel positive energy will help them deal with those realities, and that's fine. Others manage these concerns in other ways. Just as some people find support groups really helpful and others do not. Personally I have found support groups extremely positive and full of information on my own health matters -- typically full of people far more informed than the GP, and even many of the specialists.
The main intent of CavTalk always has been to provide a focus on breed health, support to those with affected dogs, and support and promotion of rescue. So I am utterly unapologetic for that focus being here. People can ignore topics, or entire subforums if it suits them.
For many of us, working to give this breed some kind of future -- which many, including geneticists, feel is increasingly challenging because of these major health issues -- is a passion and a conviction, and it's going to stay that way here and dare I say that IS 'positive energy'. There is a hell of a lot more 'positive energy' here to actually ADDRESS these issues than there is elsewhere -- just look at our Rupert's Fund project which has raised over 20,000 pounds for research, through or directly from people connected to the board. We provide guidance for puppy buyers, support for people with affected dogs, guidance and links. We post up the latest research and health information. Crucially, we also don't deny there's a problem or downplay it. We work in and support cavalier rescue across the world. We have helped get lost dogs and owners reunited. How much more 'positive energy' can we provide? :lol: I do, very seriously though, think the many people here who devote hours to these activities and often have done so for years --regularly using the board as a base and networking hub -- may be a bit insulted to be told we are not positive enough however.
Sorry: but are you serious? The whole board is full of discussions and activities and actions, fundraisers, research projects and support, in precisely these areas. Maybe as you are still relatively new, you haven't gone back to the hundreds of earlier threads on this, over seven years, yet? Maybe read a bit more on Rupert's Fund, the Cavalier Collection Project, Cavalier Matters, Rod's work with the Cavalier health website, Carol Fowler's Cavalier Campaign, Margaret's Cavalier Puppy buyer's information website...and on and on and on...
Separate to that: I would not scan an asymptomatic pet dog just to scan, myself. And agree with others, I would not give meds without a reason to give them. Vets unfortunately are not great on knowledge about the meds for SM. Dogs on meds for SM should be having regular blood tests, for example, but most vets don't monitor this (I always have to ask). I don't think a dog can be left without addressing pain with SM however. And many are treated without NSAIDS - most dogs like most humans, won't have serious side effects from NSAIDS though I sure understand the issues, too -- I cannot take long term NSAIDS myself. All meds should of course be given with neurologist/vet supervision and appropriate tests as needed; and any increase in dosage should be worked through with a professional, not ad hoc.