So confused

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by murphy's mum

And yes Melissa it is freaking me out, it's horrible to sea him in obvious distress over something, but I'm trying to remain calm for his sake, the last thing he need is to pick up me being stressed out too. I have some great breathing exercises to do if I feel stressed, it's just a shame Murph can't do them too :)

---

Its funny I have seen and handled many many children's accidents some really bad, broken arms, knocked out teeth, I've used the Heimlich several times to help a chocking kid and so on (working in childcare) I naturally am not someone who panics. Even with my own kids (touch wood we have never had anything real bad) But twice when I thought Fletcher was hurt I was a mess. Once when he throw up fabric and I rushed him to the vet and when we both fell down the outside steps. I think its because he can't tell me what's the matter and I have less experience with dogs. Murphy seems to want his Mommy and Daddy when he's hurting, you and 100% correct to remain calm for his sake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sins

The dog is in a right state because he doesn't want to be separated from you at night.To me,it's a behavioural issue,perhaps some extreme form of separation anxiety.

---

This is what we thought, but why only at night, and why only a couple of times, with a 6-8 week gap in between them? He's now had 3 episodes while I've been sitting during the day, and 11 after being put to bed. The other thing is I normally work 8 hours a day, and have done since he was 6 months old, and he's never shown distress at being left during the day. I do come home for lunch. I'm off at the moment through ill health, but still go out for shopping, appointments etc. I even had Misty at the vet this morning, and he was fine left on his own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sins

It's worth trying the behaviour/training approach before heavily medicating the dog.I would also worry about him injuring himself while in that state.I think you will get to the bottom of it,but not with a neurologist.

---

Agreed, the Neuro suggested trying Tramadol last night, but I disagreed,so she said to take him off the Gabapentin too, as he doesn't seem to have had any benefit. Obviously if there is any change in his behaviour we'll know it was doing him good with area's other that these horrible episodes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karlin

Is he crate trained? He might feel more secure in a covered crate at night (that's where all my dogs go). If he is able to dig things out of cupboards etc then they need to be secured -- you don;t want him getting into trouble that could make him seriously ill (eg chewing up bags which could cause a serious blockage).

---

No he isn't crate trained. Luckily he doesn't open cupboards, but we have two open slots between units that he was digging things out of, these have now been cleared of bags and the lap trays too.

Other than the episode, he's fine. He eats well, the loves his walks, snoozes happily beside me while I'm home, and has a play sessions with me or Stuart most nights, as Misty doesn't play. He chases toys around, has a tug-o-war, and is very ferocious barking and growling and running around us like a loon.

Quote:

---

but why only at night, and why only a couple of times, with a 6-8 week gap in between them? He's now had 3 episodes while I've been sitting during the day, and 11 after being put to bed.

---

That's why I think this is more likely to be pain/neurology related. This kind of randomness is typical of CM/SM pain. A lot of CMSM dogs show more difficulty at night -- scratch more, have pain episodes then. The drooling is I think what I would find alarming -- he must really work himself into quite a state. Drooling at that severity would generally be from anxiety, pain or medical-issues. Or a mix?

I'd also wonder if there could be something else -- hydrocephalus? (but that didn't show on his MRI?). Something neurological that has developed since? If it generally ends fairly quickly then I don't now what you can do -- they sound episodic, and giving something like tramadol wouldn't act til after the episode would be over. The fact that he's done it when you are there as well as when you are not, at night, doesn't make it sound like separation anxiety to me (especially not if he's never had this before and no reason to get it now, his regular bedtime routine hasn't changed; he has another dog companion there with him, etc).

I'm not sure you can do much but continue to monitor; maybe try some other meds combinations? Some of these things -- as long as the dog is otherwise happy and comfortable and pain is medicated as needed -- are elements that can come and go. If only they could talk and tell us what is going on. :(

Well he didn't even want to go into the kitchen last night at bedtime, normally he goes in without a fuss, in fact if we're up later than normal he used to put himself to bed :(

In the end he came in because I was giving Misty her pills, which she gets in a light cheese slice, so he came in for his too. Went upstairs, he barked a few times, and then I could hear him digging his bed, and then all quiet. Only 10 minutes later I heard him scratching at something else, but I didn't know what, so I went downstairs and they both met me at the gate, tails going 10 to the dozen. I found he'd been scratching at the wall beside the porch door, and it looked as though he'd been licking the door? He was starting to pant and his chin was a bit wet, so I just packed them both upstairs. I don't know if this started off pain related, and is now behavioural, but I can't leave him to just get into a bad state.

I don't know if he was wanting into the porch, or out the back, or why. We got the back garden paved at the end of June and they both stopped doing their business out there, so we started letting them out the front instead. His very first episode was at the start of June, so I don't think they are related. When he was a puppy he used to sleep in the porch, as it used to be empty, except for a radiator. It's about 2m x 2m, and was perfect when he was little, but we moved him into the kitchen as he grew, I think he was about one. The wash basket he was digging out was also in the corner beside the porch door, but the bags were over the other side of the kitchen...

Then this morning, he didn't want to go into the kitchen to get fed, Stuart had to coax him in. He came in fine when I was getting ready for their walk, and he came in and sniffed all over the kitchen when I was doing the dishes just now.

We've decided not to even try putting him to bed in the kitchen tonight. Whether it's the right decision or not, I don't know, but if it stops him getting upset, then I think it's the right thing to do.

Yes,seems the best thing to do,if it reduces stress on him and gives you a bit of time and space to figure out what's happening with him.
Sins

This probably won`t help with your situation, but has something bad happened to him in the kitchen, our older cavalier slept in the kitchen for years and then about 6 years ago we got a new fridge and it must have made loud gurgling noises in the night which we just did`nt hear in the day time, and he got freaked out and started waking and barking several times in the night and would`t settle, this went on for a few nights before we realized what it was, the final straw came when the calendar fell of the back of the kitchen door one night and he just would`nt sleep in their again, so for the last 6 years he has been up with us at night. It is strange how things unsettle them, we now have issues with our younger cavalier, we recently got a new cooker and he hates it, if he does come into the kitchen when it is on he stands huddled up in the corner of the room or runs and hides in the other room by a chair, this all seemed to start from when the cooker timer went off, it must have a louder bleep on it than our old cooker. Hope you sort out his problems soon.

Agree with above that something bad is not associated with the kitchen. Could be something in the environment, could be that he has had some pain episodes at night when in the kitchen and now associates the kitchen in particular with the possibility of pain episodes. I'd try him in a new place and see if that helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karlin

Agree with above that something bad is not associated with the kitchen. Could be something in the environment, could be that he has had some pain episodes at night when in the kitchen and now associates the kitchen in particular with the possibility of pain episodes. I'd try him in a new place and see if that helps.

---

This is what we're thinking. I can't think of anything bad happening to him while he's been in the kitchen, as they are only in the kitchen over night.

Misty's snoring hasn't bothered me as much as it used to, so it's not been too bad having them upstairs, we have a superking size bed thank god. We tried putting the babygate at the bottom of the stairs after one of his previous episodes, but couldn't get Misty to settle. It may be worth trying again, or we might just leave them upstairs.