chicken and rice

[judy]

zack had bloody diarrhea when i first got him on 1/28 and the cause isn't really known for sure. he got vomiting and no appetite three weeks later and that lasted two weeks, and stopped as suddenly as it began. he's taking medication for diarrhea/colitis and not having symptoms so whether he still has it without the medication i don't know.

He's been eating boiled chicken and white rice for 9 days, and for 3 or 4 days, he's also been having some kibble, chicken and rice. I just got some duck and potato today nd am gradually changing the food, based on several recommendations.

I'm wondering if zack mostly eats boiled chicken and white rice, with a little kibble, are there vitamins and minerals he's not getting enough of? the kibble seems to have a lot of nutrients in it. Is that an adequate vitamin/mineral supplement? I'm worried that anything and everythnig can cause the colitis, including vitamins and things, and like keeping it simple. I do put digestive enzymes and probiotics on his food.

so far, so good. He seems stable day to day. maybe the chicken and rice kibble agrees with him. he had been looking too thin, and his butt felt bony, but now he looks right, still slim but not too slim, and his butt has some meat on it.

I've heard several people say their dogs didn't do well with chicken and rice kibble. Why would a dog do well on boiled chicken and rice, but not on kibble chicken and rice?

[Karlin]

As to the latter point -- because kibble has lots of other things in it, and it is a processed food. Often it has grains to bulk it out (which can cause allergies), and often the chicken is not a very good standard and if you read the small print is listed as 'pountry meal' which means a mix of poultry sources, though it says chicken on the bag. Cheaper foods have really poor protein sources, as they can use dead and ill animals that can;t enter the food chain plus all the stuff not used when chicken is processed, like legs and beaks and feathersd ('derivitives' on the package').

Kibble is a processed food. I think of it like Wheaties. Wheaties have all sorts of added nutrients and you could live on nothing but Wheaties, but most people wouldn't. A dried kibble has 'added vitamins' and so on because the very process of making the kibble takes out most of the nutrient value of the food.

Personally that's why I mostly give a cooked or raw diet to my dogs and supplement with some kibble to round out the nutrients I know the dogs should get, as a back-up. But usually I feed stews I make up (there are recipes in the Caring for Your Cavalier section) as well as raw chicken necks. I'd never feed kibble alone unless I have nothing else in the house. I always supplement it with something -- cooked egg, sardines, cooked beef or chicken or turkey, a bit of cooked liver, a mashed banana, or other fruit or veg etc.

[Roberta]

Glad to hear that Zack is still doing well. You will want to gradually add the Duck and Potato kibble--maybe 10 pieces of kibble the first couple of days and if that is okay then increase to 15 pieces for a couple of days etc. Dogs often do better with the chicken and rice itself rather than the chicken and rice kibble because kibble has lots of fiber and so is more challenging for the digestive system.

Karlin makes really good suggestions of other things to feed, and that works for most dogs, but for dogs with food sensitivities, like Zack, you really want to stabilize him on just a couple of ingredients and be able to wean him off the Tylan etc. You can add a Tablespoon of canned Natural Balance Duck and Potato to his kibble so he has a bit of variety. Once he has been on the Duck and Potato diet for a month or so and he is stable (no diarrhea/vomiting etc.), and is not on Tylan or any other drugs, then you can start to introduce other items if you want to "challenge" his system. However, with Trevor, we have stayed with Duck and Potato because that agrees with him and we had had such a hard time with so many other foods before we found something that worked! We had had 18 months of colitis, so we found that the Duck and Potato worked, we were thrilled to keep it simple

Best, Roberta

[Karlin]

Good recommendations. Forgot to emphasise this was a quite general response (and personal perspective) -- not to Zack's particular situation. icon_thumbsup

[judy]

...Kibble is a processed food. I think of it like Wheaties. Wheaties have all sorts of added nutrients and you could live on nothing but Wheaties, but most people wouldn't. A dried kibble has 'added vitamins' and so on because the very process of making the kibble takes out most of the nutrient value of the food....

So i can keep feeding boiled chicken and white rice indefinitely, as long as i give some kibble because he'll get the balance of nutrients he needs from the kibble? Thinking of the kibble as like a multi-vitamin?

The kibble brands that i've been using were highly rated by Whole Dog Journal, so hopefully it's all good human grade food, although processed and not optimum for that reason.

[judy]

Glad to hear that Zack is still doing well. You will want to gradually add the Duck and Potato kibble--maybe 10 pieces of kibble the first couple of days and if that is okay then increase to 15 pieces for a couple of days etc. Dogs often do better with the chicken and rice itself rather than the chicken and rice kibble because kibble has lots of fiber and so is more challenging for the digestive system. ....with Trevor, we have stayed with Duck and Potato because that agrees with him and we had had such a hard time with so many other foods before we found something that worked! We had had 18 months of colitis, so we found that the Duck and Potato worked, we were thrilled to keep it simple

I was just reading the labels on the NB Duck and Potato and on the Natura California Natural Chicken and Rice. they look pretty similar in terms of the simplicity, one protein source and one carbohydrate source, and a bunch of vitamins and minerals. I've added a few duck and potato kibbles in with the chicken and rice kibble, as per your instruction. thank goodness he's still doing fine, he's like normal now. his stool looks normal, no diarrhea for two weeks, no vomiting for a week and a half, consistently strong appetite, i'm a happy camper. He is still on Tylan, a very small amount per day, less than 1/16th of a teaspoon. Whether it's having any effect, i guess i can't know, unless he stops taking it and then gets diarrhea back again.

18 months of colitis with Trevor, wow, how frustrating and worrisome. But with a happy duck and potato ending, thank goodness.

[judy]

I've been feeding Zack mainly chicken and rice, with supplementary kibble, for three weeks now. I have been wondering what ratio of chicken to rice people use. I've been doing it about 50/50 and am wondering if that's appropriate, or if it matters.

[Karlin]

Hey that's great about Zack -- you must be so relieved!

I'd go with any Whole Dog Journal rated kibble -- all excellent.

I'd say 50/50 is fine. You could try introducing some fresh finely grated veg if you'd like after a while, or fruits, and see how he does. Most dogs like tinned pumpkin for example which is good for bowels -- you could add a heaping tablespoon whenever you like, even daily. Or finely grate raw carrot. Try him on some whole mini carrots as a treat -- they are good for firming up stools by adding roughage and are good for working their anal glands (unless you finally grate (oir pulverise in a juuicer or cuisinart) dogs don;t get any food value from veg, really, they just pass it through but the bulk is good for them).

If he does fine on chicken, you could try to vary some red meat in there -- a bit of lightly cooked ground lamb for example, or venison -- both these tend not to cause problems for dogs with allergies or sensitive stomachs.