Neutering at a young age???

6 months is the earliest I suggest my puppy buyers neuter-- I prefer a year. Just another opinion-- Sandy

My vet recommended King get neutered @ no later then 6months. He was just over 5 1/2 months the same time he got his first rabies shot... I had to get him fixed cuz i signed a contract wit the breeder stating that i needed to send her a copy of the bill stating that he was neutered, i didn't mind but it wasn't til like 3 weeks later that i kinda wish i didn't cuz i met a woman wit a 2yr old tri who she wanted to breed and she thought King looked perfect 4 her mate... I was flattered that she wanted to have King stud wit her female...but i couldn't revise wat was done.... plus after being neutered King came home happy 2 staples and NO collar...then 10 days later staples out he was perfectly happy...

So you would have considered breeding your boy just because someone expressed an interest in him, despite your contract with your breeder? Not to mention health testing, age, etc.,?

Breeding very definitely isn't simply a matter of putting two dogs together because someone thinks they look good, or that it would be fun to have puppies, but of taking time to make sure a given dog's genes are of such value that they should be passed on. In purebred dogs, where gene pools are by very definition already quite limited, this is crucial to prevent passing on genes for the serious health conditions that can affect most purebreds, as the narrow gene pool means the chances are greatly increased of producing health problems in the puppies. In other words, you need to know several pedigree generations on each side of the prospective mating, and the whether any of those dogs carry dominant or recessive genes for such health issues.

In cavaliers there are two very serious conditions -- MVD and syringomyelia -- and no breeder wants to condemn puppies to having either of these in a form that arrives early and is severe or put a family through the misery of trying to treat these conditions and lose their cavalier at a young age after much suffering. Cavaliers also have problems with hips, knees and eyes. They also can suffer from two other terrible afflictions, episodic falling syndrome and curly coat syndrome (which Alison's little Honeybee had -- see her post in the In Memoriam section).

That of course is only a beginning; there are conformation issues as well (eg understanding what qualities of appearance a mating is going to produce and if it keeps good genes within the line). Backyard bred dogs (which are what dogs are, if bred by anyone not doing all the tasks above) move more and more away from what a cavalier should look like -- too big, too small, head not right, body wrong shape... and that is not even considering the health problems that can come from poor conformation. Small 'teacup' cavaliers for example are often bred from litter runts and have all the potential health issues that can bring -- then people breed two of these dogs together!

Anyone who cares about this breed will not breed indiscriminately to produce puppies, but will only do so with very serious intent and a strong understanding of genetics, breed standard and the responsibilities and health issues involved in breeding, and will work with an experienced, responsible breeder/mentor.

See Bruce's post here as it gives very good advice to anyone who thinks their dog might be worth breeding :

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1356

For most of us, as much as we love our dogs, breeding is never the right choice and our dogs, as handsome as they are to us, are not breeding quality. That is why the breeder placed them in pet homes to begin with, and that is why breeders place breeding restrictions/neutering clauses in the homing contract as well.

Like Sandy, we like to see all our puppies S/N no earlier than 6 months; and we will normally encourage 1 year if the people seem very responsible and understand the problems and responsibility. We have even told people we will keep their girls while they are in season if they find they are uncomfortable with keeping an eye on them.

A breeder we know does some early S/N, before the puppy goes to it's new home at 3 months; let's just say we agree to disagree. But the only reason she does this is that she has had a few of her puppies on a S/N contract bred and registered in one of the bogus registries.

Bruce H said:

Like Sandy, we like to see all our puppies S/N no earlier than 6 months; and we will normally encourage 1 year if the people seem very responsible and understand the problems and responsibility. We have even told people we will keep their girls while they are in season if they find they are uncomfortable with keeping an eye on them.

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Sandy and Bruce,
is this preference for delaying neutering for health reasons, and if so, what are they?

Most people want my puppies because I do health testing and they like the looks of my cavaliers. If someone were to do an infantile neutering on one of my cavaliers- I won't guarantee that they would turn out looking like mine at all. I have seen dogs that were neutered early (4 months) and they didn't resemble their breed that well - let alone their well known sire.
Hormones aren't just for reproduction. Hence, woman who get hysterectomies are usually advised to go on hormone therapy. The advantage of letting a dog reach maturity before neutering are just now being looked into. The benefits of early neutering would have to outweigh any possible risks before I would advise it. There is always a small risk of operations requiring gas. An infantile dog could have health issues that wouldn't be easily identified (kidney issues, liver shunt - are two examples) that could be problematic.
What is the best time to alter a dog? The answer as individual as each dog and each environment.
I believe in proper dog management (whether you own a pet or a show dog) (you have to if you keep intact dogs of each sex). It isn't that difficult because dogs breed from instinct at specific times-- they don't breed for pleasure. FWIW-- Sandy

Judy, waiting IMHO is generally not a matter of health issues. Studies have not shown any specific gains from not neutering at 6 months to 8 months that I know of -- but in the case of females there are very specific health gains from neutering before the first heat, which will be at around 6 months, and for males, there are behavioural reasons and health reasons for neutering as well. Some breeders feel there are benefits for bone growth and for the dog to reach its adult stage before neutering but as both Sandy and Bruce indicate, it takes a particular kind of pet owner to take on the responsibilities and in some cases, unwanted behaviour this involves.

Set against arguments for waiting, are some specific risks for the average pet owner -- many do not notice their female has come into heat and end up with a pregnant dog, and pregnancy is always a significant health risk to any animal, setting aside the matter of homing unwanted puppies (Bruce for example has noted the potential risks to a mother, which can be life-threatening). Many pet owners do not realise how strong the call of an in-heat female is to their male dog -- and a cavalier that takes off after a female (they can scent a female from a very long distance away) has a good chance of being hit by a car, stolen, or being lost forever. My own experience of going into the pounds, working with rescue groups (and this is confirmed by the pound staff) is that about 70% of all strays are male dogs, and about 80-90% of those are males that have not been neutered -- often males are picked up by the warden because they are pursuing some poor bitch in heat, and numerous dogs of all sizes will try to mate with her, some quite violently. The real life of animals can in this sense be brutal and ugly and most people would not want their male or female dog in such situations. The bitches are often extremely traumatised (especially if she is in her first heat as they often are -- they are only still puppies!!) and the males can go into fighting frenzies amongst themselves, trying to get at her. Most wardens do not enjoy having to capture dogs in these situations as they can be extremely fearful or aggressive.

Some people of course are both capable and willing to manage their dog until a year old (or all the animal's life), but for many, this is not an easy or desireable task (as indicated by the number of dogs brought to the pound at around 1 year old for behaviour problems directly due to poor management of an intact (unneutered) dog.

I have to politely take issue with comparing women after hysterectomies as being a point in favour of delayed spaying or not spaying -- the situations are very different. Women have a monthly cycle and a regular flow of hormones; dogs go into a heat maybe once or twice a year and even less than that in some breeds (Lisa tells me Tibetan terriers only go into heat once every three to four years sometimes, which is why they are not farmed by puppy farmers). For the rest of the time a bitch is hormonally dormant. Women take HRT more for personal comfort, not for health reasons, because women all naturally reach such a point of non-production of hormones with menopause anyway (at which point they have *lowered* health risks for many cancers -- ovarian, breast, endometrial for example -- and hormone-related conditions). And recent studies have shown there are some risks associated with taking hormone replacement whether it be after a hysterectomy or after menopause. That said I know you are also making the point of waiting til a dog reaches maturity as that is when the hormones have done their initial jobs.

As dogs and other animals do not have cycles or sexual responses structured in the way humans do, I think it is hazardous to draw analogies of what the dog will be deprived of or miss out on. For that matter it is a false comparison anyway -- it is very well documented that human eunuchs had full 'performance' capabilities :lol: and some of the operatic castrati were infamous womanisers as well! Likewise neutered male dogs do not lose total interest in females. But they are not dominated by a single-minded drive to mate and most of the unwanted hormonally driven behaviours will subside.

karlin said:

Judy, waiting IMHO is generally not a matter of health issues. Studies have not shown any specific gains from not neutering at 6 months to 8 months that I know of -- but in the case of females there are very specific health gains from neutering before the first heat, which will be at around 6 months, and for males, there are behavioural reasons and health reasons for neutering as well. Some breeders feel there are benefits for bone growth and for the dog to reach its adult stage before neutering but as both Sandy and Bruce indicate, it takes a particular kind of pet owner to take on the responsibilities and in some cases, unwanted behaviour this involves.

Set against arguments for waiting, are some specific risks for the average pet owner -- many do not notice their female has come into heat and end up with a pregnant dog, and pregnancy is always a significant health risk to any animal, setting aside the matter of homing unwanted puppies (Bruce for example has noted the potential risks to a mother, which can be life-threatening). Many pet owners do not realise how strong the call of an in-heat female is to their male dog -- and a cavalier that takes off after a female (they can scent a female from a very long distance away) has a good chance of being hit by a car, stolen, or being lost forever. My own experience of going into the pounds, working with rescue groups (and this is confirmed by the pound staff) is that about 70% of all strays are male dogs, and about 80-90% of those are males that have not been neutered -- often males are picked up by the warden because they are pursuing some poor bitch in heat, and numerous dogs of all sizes will try to mate with her, some quite violently. The real life of animals can in this sense be brutal and ugly and most people would not want their male or female dog in such situations. The bitches are often extremely traumatised (especially if she is in her first heat as they often are -- they are only still puppies!!) and the males can go into fighting frenzies amongst themselves, trying to get at her. Most wardens do not enjoy having to capture dogs in these situations as they can be extremely fearful or aggressive.

Some people of course are both capable and willing to manage their dog until a year old (or all the animal's life), but for many, this is not an easy or desireable task (as indicated by the number of dogs brought to the pound at around 1 year old for behaviour problems directly due to poor management of an intact (unneutered) dog.

I have to politely take issue with comparing women after hysterectomies as being a point in favour of delayed spaying or not spaying -- the situations are very different. Women have a monthly cycle and a regular flow of hormones; dogs go into a heat maybe once or twice a year and even less than that in some breeds (Lisa tells me Tibetan terriers only go into heat once every three to four years sometimes, which is why they are not farmed by puppy farmers). For the rest of the time a bitch is hormonally dormant. Women take HRT more for personal comfort, not for health reasons, because women all naturally reach such a point of non-production of hormones with menopause anyway (at which point they have *lowered* health risks for many cancers -- ovarian, breast, endometrial for example -- and hormone-related conditions). And recent studies have shown there are some risks associated with taking hormone replacement whether it be after a hysterectomy or after menopause. That said I know you are also making the point of waiting til a dog reaches maturity as that is when the hormones have done their initial jobs.

As dogs and other animals do not have cycles or sexual responses structured in the way humans do, I think it is hazardous to draw analogies of what the dog will be deprived of or miss out on. For that matter it is a false comparison anyway -- it is very well documented that human eunuchs had full 'performance' capabilities and some of the operatic castrati were infamous womanisers as well! Likewise neutered male dogs do not lose total interest in females. But they are not dominated by a single-minded drive to mate and most of the unwanted hormonally driven behaviours will subside.

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I really doubt that humans were intended to last half as many years as we do. So without human intervention- we probably would only live an average of 40 something--- huh -- that is about the age of menopause.
If Dogs lived to be 20 some years-- they might stop cycling -- who knows.
I wasn't against spaying. I just don't have a real good feeling about infantile neutering. The benefits for males are few. These are cavaliers-- eager to please -- testes or not. The only male I've had escape was our neutered boy.
Everyone reacts to life by their experiences-- I have a whole pack of cavaliers and my reaction is-- If someone can't control one male until he is 6 months old-- they don't want one of my pups. Sandy

I agree; I was responding to Judy's broader question of waiting a year based on seeing what friend's have gone through in menopause, rather than the early nueter issue. I wouldn't want to neuter a pet cavalier placed responsibly before 6 months, either, and if I were a breeder, I'd have that as a stipulation, I think. However from working with rescues, both cat and dog, and having seen a few studies emerging on very early neuter, I think early neuter is the right choice for some shelters and rescues.

i had zack neutered at just over 7 months, and i'm glad i did. He was changing rapidly at that time and was developing some new behaviors, not a problem really, like Sandy said, he's a cavalier, he was sweet and cooperative, obedient and nonaggressive, but he was getting a bit sexualized

just before i got him neutered i had discovered dog parks (two weeks before), he was ecstatic at dog parks and i was overjoyed to see him having so much fun, most imporantly, the freedom, to know he was safe running around freely, the other owners paid attention to their dogs, and in about 5 or 6 visits between when i discovered the dog park and when i got him neutered, i never saw any dog fights or violence, but i was getting uptight, especially after reading a thread on here about neutering, afraid a female in heat would come to the park, i didn't want zack to get somebody pregnant, and i worried that other male dogs who were much larger might be more of a threat to zack if he was unneutered. I wanted to be relaxed and not worried about Zack running loose with other dogs, that's one reason i decided to do it at that time.

He started lifting his leg for the first time while at the dog park and i was worried about the onset of marking behavior.

I tried to research and find out information about potential health risks of neutering and was not able to find much, so i went ahead and had it done, and i like the noticeable changes in zack as a result, not so much changes but the arresting of tendencies he was beginning to get.

He's very docile and happy. I did not want to see him become increasingly frantic about other dogs, which was starting to happen, lots of shrill arf-ing when he'd see other dogs at a distance, very emotional and, well, frantic. That was the biggest behavioral or emotional reason for my choice to get him neutered, and that frantic intensity gradually died down following the neutering. He still gets excited about other dogs, but now, he listens to me when i 'shhh' him if he arfs, and he calms himself down when i tell him it's ok, 'easy boy, calm down, quiet, it's OK,' and then i don't have to struggle with him or keep my attention on him, he becomes more calm and quiet in public where he used to be much more excitable and not in a happy way, about other dogs and people too.

It's been over a month and a half and so far there's no sign of him slowing down, he's actually been more active, like, up all night doing stuff, not sleeping, not sleepy, interested in stuff, entertaining himself, playing, bringing me a ball to throw, chewing toys. so i haven't yet seen him grow more slothful which is one of the downsides of neutering.

But i am still interested in hearing all sides of the subject and am interested in the reasons any respectable breeder who cares about their puppies would ask puppy buyers to postpone neutering until one year. I ask because i don't know the reasons and am curious about it. i know there are good reasons not to neuter/spay, but i don't know what they are.

The breeder my daughter Lisa got her cavalier Belle from told her to do it right after the first heat, otherwise the risk of breast cancer would be higher.

To arrest the natural maturation of a dog does good things and not so good things. If you wait until they are about a year-- they are basically full grown. They are sexually mature. The characteristics the make males beefier and females softer looking can be there. One group has stated that they suggest that athletic dogs should be altered after they are full grown. Someone earlier may have posted that link. I believe it was Dr Hutch that had stated you shouldn't alter a female if she has puppy vaginitis. She will never outgrow that condition if you alter her at that time. There is a slight risk increase each time a female has a season to get aggresive mammory tumors. I had a rehomed cocker that was spay at 7 years (never bred). She lived to be almost 15 years old and she didn't have tumors-- her kidney and liver functions were failing. There are other cancers that can increase due to the decrease in hormones. I believe it is an osteosarcoma that is higher in spay females.
I want what is best for my dogs in the long run-- I have a nasty contract that people have to sign if they want a pup. I as a breeder, NEVER want to see one of my dogs used like the ones in the Pennsylvania puppymill bust. I am not anti altering. I have a female I am going to have spay-- just when I was going to make the appointment- I found out a dog died on the table during a neuter at our vets-- he had a reaction to the gas. It happens- owners didn't want to pay extra to have the blood tested etc...
Sandy

I have a nasty contract that people have to sign if they want a pup.

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:lol: :lol: I am sure the nastiness is all structuring in levels of responsibility. :lol: It is difficult with living things; it can be hard to be sure owners will do as asked ( eg do the right thing for each animal whatever that might be) and this always weighs heavily on anyone homing a dog or cat, kitten or puppy, whether relating to general care or neutering. In rescue there's the extra level of frustration of homing animals that are generally already considered 'surplus' by previous owners, or the unwanted result of random matings, and to put so much work in only to have those animals go on to have their own unwanted litters is exasperating. This must be a real difficulty and dilemma for good breeders too, as each puppy has been so carefully raised and you want to be sure it has the right care.

With all the cats and dogs I or my family have owned, and which friends have owned, I don't know a single neutered animal that ever had any health issue associated with a spay/neuter outside of some spay incontinence in an elderly bitch (but that could have just been incontinence, full stop). On the other hand I know many older bitches taken into rescue with mammary tumours and related problems due to not having been spayed, and of others who have lost bitches or had them barely pull through with pyometra. I think if vets saw an increase in spay/neuter health issues (rather than more due to not spaying/neutering) they would for a long time, have recommended just tying tubes on males or females as both are possible and just as easy as a spay/neuter -- then the animal in question would not be at risk of conceiving but would retain all its hormones. I still wonder why more people don't just take this option if they have concerns as it addresses the main responsibility issue of preventing litters.

I think it is important to note too that in my experience on these kinds of dicsussions, the people who have never had any issues with intact dogs and bitches are exactly those who are experienced, responsible owners to begin with, and would be training their dogs as a matter of course. I see the results via general rescue, in both cats and dogs, of animals that have never had any kind of training and behaviour modification, and these are typically the behaviours that have caused the animals to be surrendered to pounds or brought to vets to be pts in the first place.

WoodHaven said:

One group has stated that they suggest that athletic dogs should be altered after they are full grown. Someone earlier may have posted that link.
Sandy

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I think that may have been me. I've been searching all over for that link and can't find it. Must have deleted it somehow. At any rate, that research was one of the reasons we like to see people wait if they can even if we don't consider the Cavalier "athletic". And if they can't or don't want to wait, that's OK too; we just don't want the puppies S/N at 3 months.

WoodHaven said:

One group has stated that they suggest that athletic dogs should be altered after they are full grown. Someone earlier may have posted that link.
Sandy

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I think that may have been me. I've been searching all over for that link and can't find it. Must have deleted it somehow. At any rate, that research was one of the reasons we like to see people wait if they can even if we don't consider the Cavalier "athletic". And if they can't or don't want to wait, that's OK too; we just don't want the puppies S/N at 3 months.

jeni said:

My vet also said that both testies must be down and that his baby teeth need to fall out before neutering. Both testies are down and I am not sure about the baby teeth. I am just concerned that my boy might be too young. There is a lot of talk about spaying females but hardly any opinions or comments on male neutering... so it is quite confusing.

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Numerous vets I've talked to regarding neutering Gus say that as early as 4 months, if the testies are down, is totally fine. Given that, and the behavioral issues we're having with him (his latest is to lift his leg and pee on other dogs! :yikes ), Gus is getting neutered this Wednesday. He'll be a week short of 5 months, and I can't wait to see the changes...I hope! If he's still the little creep that he can be, we'll of course continue his bootcamp training regime that we've been doing since we got him! :lol: