URGENT HELP NEEDED

[Jen114]

Okay..... as those who know me know... that my mom has just bought a puppy and so has my sister in law... they are both from different litters.... Mom takes care of kayla everyday and by the way i am seeing a little progress there.....

What we are very worried about is ABBY mom's Dog..... grows and bites the other puppy....but it does not look at all friendly and she actually hurts the other puppy and makes her yelp.... What do you do? she stalks her and then runs and jumps on her and bites her... Molly is now obviously frightened of ABBY

What do you do in this situation...????????????

[Karlin]

That's a difficult situation. It is generally not a good idea to let dogs freely mix when they are just getting to know one another, especially if they are of different sizes, or if one is a puppy. It may be especially stressful to Abby to have a new competitor (actually now two) and you will have to control and monitor all their interactions. Also you need to perhaps have a behaviouralist come watch their interactions and tell you if this is indeed problem behaviour or just seems to be.

In general a puppy should never be left alone or unwatched around an adult dog anyway. Not all adults like all puppies. Amd not all adults understand how to play gently with a puppy, as the "warning" thread in this section notes. Tara's advice there holds here as well. Tara is a trained and certified behaviouralist.

I know that I sound like a broken record but I have to say this again... body language.

The ability to read a dogs body language is KEY. While owners are not watching there is a whole load of communication going on between dogs in close proximity. If we have them on leads we prevent them from moving away from each other and we can easily cause a conflict.

What owners tend to do wrong is correct their dog for growling at another dog. Growling is a normal behaviour it is asking another dog to back off.

If growling is continuously corrected the dog will stop using it. The next time a dog is in contact with another dog and they would like that other dog to back off, they are now muted so the growl will be skipped and they will go straight to the next level which is usually bearing teeth and quickly biting.

Many people believe that a dog lying on it's back and exposing its belly means it is submissive. This is NOT always the case. If a dog is lying on it's back, exposing it's belly with it's tail curled in it is still protecting itself and it is best to take the dog out of that situation.

Watch EARS, EYES, MOUTH, TAIL POSITION AND CARRAIGE. If you don't understand a dogs body language simply don't take the chance. Remove it from the situation.

Book recommendation:http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB856 Canine Body Language, A Photographic Guide by Brenda Aloff.

Basically you are going to have to control all interactions, never leave them alone together, maybe keep Abby on a lead at all times around the puppy til their relationship settles and do some work to help develop their relationship. Getting professional advice would be wise given that you don;t want to put the puppy at risk. As the puppy gets alrger and older you will need to worry less probaboly, but you have a particularly young and small puppy.

[Karlin]

PS There is plenty of info and advice out on the web too if you google introduing a puppy to a dog, or adding a puppy, or similar.

I should also add that it is not generally a good idea to have two unspayed females together in one household -- this may be the issue if Abby isn't spayed; I don't really know anything about her though.

Some links:

http://www.phsspca.org/training/pupp..._adult_dog.htm
http://www.phsspca.org/training/dogs_friction.htm
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer...introducingdog
http://www.amrottclub.org/dog2.htm

From one article:

Female dogs and male dogs each have their own roles in the pack, and usually can get along with each other in the home without injury. But if it you have any doubts, ask your veterinarian to recommend a behavior specialist who can observe the dogs in person.

Do be careful about things like food, extra-special toys, treats, and other things that could create excessive competition between them. Here are ideas that help when managing multiple dogs in the home:

Spay/neuter both of them.
Work with your veterinarian to be fully aware of the medical issues affecting each dog. For example, a dog with hip dysplasia, a damaged knee ligament, deafness, or blindness will react differently to other dogs. A seizure disorder could make one dog the target of another, or could cause the dog in the seizure to become aggressive. Some medical disorders will call for separating the dogs at least part of the time.
Give no food of any kind to them without enforcing complete separation until both are finished eating. Any toys they would fight over need to be removed, and given only when they are apart. Same for chew items.
Obedience training. You need to be able to control EACH dog without your hands or a leash, just your voice. Then you have a chance of controlling both when they are together. You do not want to be sticking your hands between two sets of flashing dog teeth.
Take each dog away from the house daily for training time away from the other dog. This strengthens your individual control over each dog incredibly.
Comb out or in some other way thoroughly groom each dog daily. This makes it a lot safer to put your hands on them when they are aroused, plus it powerfully strengthens both their individual attachments to you and their obedience to you.
Have them do a 2-minute Sit-Stay and a 4-minute Down-Stay about 4 feet apart, every day.
As long as you have concerns they might fight, separate them when you are not able to supervise them.
When you arrive home, immediately let them out to run together. A fenced back yard is a huge help with this. They will argue a lot less if they can solve some of their relationship issues through running together. This is particularly important when returning with one of them who has been out with you. If they are cooped up in a small space when feeling this way, fighting is more likely.
Be careful about when and how you intervene. An owner interrupting the interaction between two dogs at the wrong time can actually trigger fighting. Dogs are also capable of fighting to get your attention.

[Jen114]

Thank you very much for your quick reply..... very interesting and informative information!!!!!!!

Abby is also a puppy she is 7 weeks old........... Abby is the one growling and biting hard and jumping on the other puppy who is named Molly and she is 8weeks old..... Kayla is 14ths old but is now avoiding Abby completly does not want anything to do with her..... when abby gets ahold of kayla she growls and jumps on her ear and does not let go.....

Maybe this will help with the advice

thanks again!!!! xxxxxxx

[Maxxs_Mummy]

What sort of dog is Abby? Is it possible that she is playing? Sometimes, even when they play they can get quite rough. Charlie and Maxx love each other really but Charlie jumps on Maxx and pulls his ears until he squeals

I have been making the low pitched buhhhhhhhhhhhh sound whenever he does it and he is doing it less and less.

Apparently, it is the best noise you can make as it sounds like the warning that the mother dog gives to her pups.

If Abby is a bigger breed, it's quite possible that she doesn't mean to hurt Molly and tbh at 7 weeks I would be really surprised if she did. I wouldn't have thought she'd have any malice in her at that age.

Don't forget that like babies, pups want to put everything in their mouths. It's how they learn about different textures etc. If you are really worried though, maybe ask your vet to give you the number for a good behaviouralist in your area.

[WoodHaven]

Thank you very much for your quick reply..... very interesting and informative information!!!!!!!

Abby is also a puppy she is 7 weeks old........... Abby is the one growling and biting hard and jumping on the other puppy who is named Molly and she is 8weeks old..... Kayla is 14ths old but is now avoiding Abby completly does not want anything to do with her..... when abby gets ahold of kayla she growls and jumps on her ear and does not let go.....

Maybe this will help with the advice

thanks again!!!! xxxxxxx

Yikes, it sounds like Abby hasn't learned "dog manners" yet. This is one reason I don't home pups before 12 weeks. Every pup here understands that the older dogs rule them and I rule all the dogs. This may sound odd in human terms- but it is the only way my dogs could live together in harmony. Sandy

[judy]

jen--does abby ever act friendly or affectionate to kayla or molly, or is she only doing the growling behavior toward them? i was surprised that the breeder was so impatient that abby leave at such a tender age, your mom said the breeder wanted her out immediately. makes me wonder if abby had a lack of nurturing or socialization in her early weeks. i agree with the suggestions of a professional assessment. Then you can get advice from someone who sees the situation in person and who has experience and expertise in giving advice to owners on how to manage situations.

[Jen114]

Yes,,,, unfortunatly mom only got Abby at the tender age of 6.5 weeks obviously to young to be homed. The situation was the person who just happend to have pups ( i would not call her a breeder as first ever litter) wanted to get rid of the pup immediatly..... Mom has been waiting patently for a litter.... My sister and mom wanted to get pups at the same time and have been waiting patiently for a very long time now.... 2 litters have come and gone.... the 1st litter was a very sad story... the mother had difficulties and only one of the pups surivived and this is were we (my sister) bought Molly... she is a tri bitch she was 7.5 weeks when she was homed. There is only one breeder in Malta and that is the age she gives them to people.... right or wrong i not sure but in Malta this is the way they do it........... In the mean time there was another litter 5 Males 3 B&T and 2 Blen.... we did not think it would be smart to get a male once we have 2 females already... Mind you they all live in seperate houses but we are a very close family and are together most of the time so it is like we all have 3 dogs then they just sleep in their different houses.......

and kayla is 14 months old and is the quietest dog i have every seen.... even when ABBY has Kayla by the ear and is biting down on her poor ear and does not let go,,, she does nothing ..... she runs up and down with ABBY holding on tight not letting go..... Kayla would not bite or do anythign to ABBY ( i wish she would to teach her it is wrong)


OK sooo yesterday mom was taking care of ABBY(tri) (hers) MOLLY(tri) (siss) Kayla(mine)........ and ABBY STARTED.............

Stalking molly ....... jumping on her .... biting her untill Molly Yelps..... Growling at her ... then running agiain whilst still growling and biting down on her.... My dad was actually scared and seperataed them i thought they might be playing but she did not seem to friendly towards MOLLY.....

Now what do we do

seperate them?
Let them go at it and sort it out between them?


We really want all of the to get along and be friends ........ i am sure they will in the future... well i really hope so

Thats the whole story now.....

[Gillian]

Hi this is Gillian mummy to Abby. I thought I would join conversation to help with advice. When the pups get tired they actually settle and get into same bed.
Should I be smacking Abby when she does it. ?????
Or should I wait and see if it gets too much????
As sometimes Abby seems to get really Hyper and pounces , growling and biting poor little Molly . Molly is just a little smaller in size and since she did not have any brothers and sisters she is not used to puppy play either.
Abby on the other hand had four brothers and a sister.
So any advice PLEASE!!!

[judy]

i sure don't know the answer. that's why asking a behaviorist seems like a good idea.

It's hard from your story, without seeing the dogs, to know whether it's just playfulness on Abby's part, or viciousness. I know that puppies play very rough together, but when Zack and Belle were doing it, it was clear that they were both having a great time, and were happy--but they were really rough, and there was the occasional yelp by Zack, who is smaller.

But Zack does the exact same behavior with my cat and the cat hates it, i'm talking about lunging at the cat, kind of crashing into her, bonking her in the face with his nose--Belle loved it, Fluffy hates it, and so, when he did it with belle, it looked like fun and games but when he does it with Fluffy, it looks like he's being obnoxious and inappropriately rough and violent, even mean, or at least insensitive.

So from your story, it seems possible that Abby is just being a normal puppy, playing in that play fighting way they do, but is not able to find a partner who wants to do that with her, so it looks like she's being mean but if she was with another puppy who liked to play fight, it woud look like she's just being playful. In play fighting they growl and chase each other, knock each other down, and bite, sometimes hard. Biting seems to be their favorite part.

I can sure appreciate your feelings of needing to do something to intervene, seeing the gentle Kayla being abused, and Molly being frightened. I had to intervene when Zack was harrassing Fluffy too. I used to scold him, tell him sharply to stop, I used the sound "Nhahhh" that i read about in a book called Puppy Preschool by John Ross, which is supposed to sound like the mother dog's growl when she teaches puppies about limits and behavior, and Zack would always respond immediately to the growl and stop charging at Fluffy, but then, he'd start right back up again later--it's like he was so overwhelmed by his feelings of wanting another animal to play with him. Usually when i would use "nhaa" for any behavior redirection, he would stop and that was it, he would accept the limit. He wouldn't repeat the behavior again. he's pretty compliant and cooperative. but the thing with Fluffy was an exception.

Ross says if "Nhaah" doesn't work, the owner should do what he says mother dogs do, which is to escalate her expression of disapproval, by shaking the puppy by the back of his neck. I tried that a little bit, but i'm really inhibited to do that because of concerns about the potential for SM and not wanting to cause any trauma around the neck and head.

The next level of escalation of mother dog limit setting Ross recommends is actually biting the puppy on his muzzle, which i couldn't imagine doing, but then, i got so desperate and frustrated with not being able to get him to stop jumping on Fluffy, fearing Fluffy might one day scratch one of his eyes out, feeling bad about having to keep Fluffy locked upstairs all the time, i just finally got up from my chair and got over him on the floor, the way a big dog would do, and i put my mouth over his muzzle and bit down! i felt weird doing it, but he appeared to take it very seriously, i didn't bite hard, he didn't yelp or anything, but he did react, and since that day, a couple months ago, he is very different with Fluffy. He still is very obsessed with her and excited by her, and still wants to play with her in his dog way that doesn't work for her (she's 13 years old in addition to being a cat), but his behavior is so much less extreme. He stops himself before making contact with her usually, like he'll run at her and then stop rather than jumping on her, and he is just generally gentler and calmer than he was before, and she noticed the change and has become more at ease around him. It was a sudden change, not a gradual one. Pretty interesting.

another thing you could try would be clicker training, maybe. Like, use a clicker to get her to stop the behavior and then give her a reward when she stops, like a treat or just hugs and praise. If she crosses the line with one of the other dogs where they appear really distressed but are not able or willing to protect themselves, use the clicker so she stops and then praise and reward her. i didn't know about clickers when i was at my wit's end about zack and fluffy. they are surprisingly effective at getting a dog's attention.