Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Conventional Vaccines Vs Nosodes....

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    4,153
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Conventional Vaccines Vs Nosodes....

    Anyone got any views on this?

    I was going to treat both of mine with Nosodes instead of conventional vaccs, as Maxx has SM and I suspect Charlie of having it too.

    However, when I told James yesterday, he almost choked and said I would be mad to do so as they lost 4 dogs with Leptospirosis and 6 or 7 with Parvo in their surgery alone last year. And also that his mate who is a homoeopathic vet treated his dogs with Nosodes and then tested their immunity and they had none.

    I feel like I am at square one with the debating thing inside my head again. I had just made my mind up to Nosode vaccinate and now I am worrying that if I do then I might lose one of them.

    I think I am more worried as, when Maxx was about 10mths old he picked up an infection similar to Parvo that almost killed him. The Vet said then that if he hadn't been Vaccinated then we'd surely have lost him - they lost several other dogs in that surgery with the same thing and the footpath, park and fields that I used to walk him in had to all be closed and sprayed.

    Anyone got any advice on what they would do in similar circumstances please? I don't want to leave them unvaccinated & risk losing them but nor do I want to vaccinate and risk hurting Maxx's SM. HELP!!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    County Durham
    Posts
    1,045
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Oh, this is a nightmare dilemma, isn't it?

    I can't offer any help, but am facing a similar quandary with Cailean. He's had all his boosters up to last May and is now 6 years old.

    Someone was telling me the other week about a breeder that had blood test on one of her dogs to see if its' vaccinations were still effective after a year. Apparently, it revealed the dog had full immunity still.

    I'm torn about what to do about Cailean now. Generally, family can always 'babysit' him if we are going away. Also, pretty soon he'll be on a cocktail of heart meds., so I'd rather not fill him up with even more chemicals.

    Good luck with your decision.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Santa Monica CA
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    this is a new subject to me that i am trying to learn more about. from what i have learned so far, i don't see it as an urgent matter to have all the vaccinations, i mean, that i can take some time to study it, i don'thave to feel that it's now or never. As of now, Zack has had all his puppy shots except Bordatella and Rabies, and right now, i don't plan to have bordatella. I do plan to have rabies, but would like to postpone it until his immune system is mature and stable. He's 9 months old now.

    One thing is, i don't think it should be black and white, there's lots of shades of gray.

    The issues that interest me below are things i've learned mainly from reading discussions about these things. I don't know if they are true, i mean, i haven't verfied them. They are just ideas i've been introduced to that may be true. So these are my concerns:

    One issue is, they give several vaccinations in one shot. There's evidence to suggest that vaccinations can stress a body's immune system. If so, might it be better to have just one of them at a time, spaced apart?

    Another issue is, they give the same dosage size of vaccine to a chihuahua or a puppy that they give to a 100 pound dog. The drug companies don't make different sizes for different sized animals. It might be better if this was not the case, the problems associated with vaccinations might be reduced by giving an appropriate amount of vaccine.

    Another issue is the adjuvant, the catalyst or substance that is combined with the vaccine. Drug companies are not required to fully disclose all of these, but one of them is mercury. There has been a movement among parents and other supporters of kids with autism because there is some evidence suggesting that autism has increased in frequency with the use of the mercury adjuvant.

    Cats have been killed, apparently, by this adjuvant. I think this is no longer controversial--it has caused aggressive fatal sarcomas and other bone cancers in cats at the vaccination site. Just a small percentage of cats get it, but high enough of a risk that the manufacturer has finally made an adjuvant free vaccine for cats, and i believe conventional veternary practice is now to use the adjuvant free vaccine with cats (this is quite recent). But there is not yet an adjuvant free vaccine for dogs (this is with respect to rabies vaccine).

    Another issue: There are one year and three year vaccines, and I have heard that there is no difference between them, it's just a matter of the local conventions of different states in the US, whether a three year vaccine protocol will be accepted.

    The adjuvant free vaccine (for cats) only comes in a one year label right now.

    So whether a pet is required to have a yearly or an every three year vacinnation depends only on where a person lives and what their vet is ok with, not necessarily on what is needed for protection.

    Another issue is that some vaccinations are more necessary than others. Some diseases are a real risk and vaccinations play a clear life saving role, as with parvo and distemper. With other diseases, maybe the vaccinations should be more discretionary for an owner to decide between them and their vet. Reportedly, my dog has a better chance of being struck by lightening than of getting rabies in the area where i live, but in other areas, the risk is greater.

    Many people report that the Bordatella or kennel cough vaccine causes kennel cough in a lot of dogs and they become sick and it takes time to get them over it. On the other hand, in a healthy dog, kennel cough is not a serious illness, no more than a cold or flu is serious in humans. It's self limiting and the dog will recover fully, and will not be very sick, although the cough is annoying. Is the benefit worth the risk of vaccinating?

    That's the question with all these issues. These issues would be irrelevant if there was no problem with vaccinations. There is some evidence supporting the idea that they may contribute to some serious immune problems in some animals, or make them more vulnerable to such problems, and there is some evidence that over time, as use of vaccinations increases, veterinary practices are increasingly seeing illness that were never seen 30 years ago--back then, mostly they saw broken bones, foreign body ingestion and that sort of thing, but now there is a steady parade of allergic type illnesses and autoimmune things, cushings and addisons, stuff like that. And these can shorten animals' lives, but more importantly they can harm the quality of life.

    Another issue is one you brought up Donna, of titers--the dog can have the first shots as puppies, and then, rather than routinely doing yearly booster shots, a vet can run titers on the level of immunity to various diseases to see if there is immunity, and if there is, then the shots are not needed, and the dog can be checked again the following year. One of my three vets volunteered, rather proudly i thought, that "we do titers." So may it's kind of cutting edge. Titers are not expensive.

    There are lots of ambiguities about vaccinating.

    here's a link i just found doing a search for the beyond vaccinations site--there is some simple info here in brief form, and some links.
    http://www.4loveofdog.com/vaccinations.htm

    Here is the UC Davis vaccination guidelines--they point out that these are general guidelines and that individual circumstances vary a lot, therefore how to vaccinate should be a case by case decision (and this is a totally pro-vaccination position):

    http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/cli...ccinproto.html

    These are only general guidelines, as the vaccine types recommended and the frequency of vaccination vary depending on the lifestyle of the pet being vaccinated, i.e. indoor vs outdoor pets, travel plans, kennel/boarding plans, and underlying disease conditions such as immune-mediated diseases or pre-existing infections such as FIV infection. Because these factors may change over time, we recommend the vaccination plan for each individual pet be decided by the owner at routine annual examinations, following a discussion between the veterinarian and the client regarding the animal’s lifestyle in the year ahead.
    I think the following is an important resource--you can email dr dodds with questions about your individual situation and she will write back as soon as she can. She travels extensively, trying to get funding for research to provide an evidence base for new vaccination practices that are more enlightened and more healthy for animals.

    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM

    This is an informative site. It's not anti-vaccination. It's pro information:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeyondVaccination/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    565
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Donna, u kno i this is kinda a new subject for me too....but i have heard of Nosodes before....My boss used a Nosode for the Dog Flu back in Dec...when it was very high in our part of NY...I'm not really sure if it worked but i can say that the pups never got the Dog Flu, but that can be that they never came in contact wit a dog that had it...The place we got the Nosode from was http://www.animalwellness.net/ that's where we also get the Vets Choice dog food from too...but that has nuttin to do wit this rit now...But in my opinion u should take to ur vet and see wat they feel is better cuz they would (hopefully) kno more then we do...

    I have King vaccinated for Parvo-virus, Rabies, Lyme disease, and his Bordetella...I got the Bordetella because he comes to work wit me sometimes and i dont want him catching anything that our pups there might have or vis vera...

    (Judy) My vet had given King his rabies when he was 5 1/2 months on around the same time he was neutered...He had the Bordetella from the breeder so when he was due for his up dated vaccinations i asked to have it done because of wat i said above. Although he was due for his Parvo, Lyme, and Rabies...so that would've been 4 shots in one day, my vet suggested i do 2 that day and 5-7 days later come back for the other do so not to mess up his immune system.

    But i do agree that all the vaccinations are the same dosage, which i dont get like Judy said how does a vaccination treat a chihuahua or puppy and the same time treats a dog that is 100+lbs..that's wat kinda gets me worried bout vaccinations...

    Donna i would also do some more research on Nosodes to see how many cases of dogs being given Nosodes did not contract the diseases...That's wat i would do before changing from one thing to another...
    Aaron, King and the rest of family
    living in NY

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Santa Monica CA
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofthehouse86
    I have King vaccinated for Parvo-virus, Rabies, Lyme disease, and his Bordetella...I got the Bordetella because he comes to work wit me sometimes and i dont want him catching anything that our pups there might have or vis vera...r...
    Under these kinds of circumstances, i might do bordatella too, i tend to think the individual situation should be taken into account. For example, i've never gotten any boosters for my cat, but she has always been a 100% indoor cat, not coming into contact with any other animals, and showing no interest in going outside.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    565
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Judy that's fine for ur cat cuz they never come in contact wit the outside world...but Zack goes outside and might catch something...but i think (but this is my opinion) that u should get ur cat vaccinated cuz zack could bring something in and get the cat sick but the likely of that happening is slim to non, so i wouldn't worry but still it's my opinion and i cant tell u how to raise ur animals...but most indoor cats that i kno are so much more healthier that cats that live indoor/outdoor or just outdoor....like the 2 cats that live in my store aren't the healthiest cuz one their overweight and two they are also old so their immune system is low...but they are holding strong...but enough bout our cats...but all i wanna say is i want a KITTY but my mom says NO!!! but that's now...lol plus Judy hope Zack is making progress on feeling beter
    Aaron, King and the rest of family
    living in NY

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Santa Monica CA
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofthehouse86
    Judy that's fine for ur cat cuz they never come in contact wit the outside world...but Zack goes outside and might catch something...but i think (but this is my opinion) that u should get ur cat vaccinated cuz zack could bring something in and get the cat sick...
    I wonder which diseases they can catch from each other.
    Zack has all his puppy shots except rabies and bordatella, and when his booster is due, i'll have titers run on him and see whether he needs them or not.

    how come your mom says no kitty? If i should outlive Fluffy (one never knows) i'd like to get a kitten. But i think i would like to take a holiday from routinely facing the cat box.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    4,153
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think it's necessarily catching diseases from each other Judy but more if Zack picked anything up on his paws or you on your shoes and then transferred it back into the house where the cat is.

    We used to have a rabbit who never left the garden, he only went in his hutch to sleep & would let us know when he was ready for bed by jumping into his hutch and thumping! Anyway, as he never left the garden I wondered about vaccinations but was advised to have them done by several local people who had lost their rabbits to disease. These rabbits had never left the garden either but their other animals had brought diseases in

    Aaron, if you still live at home, can I ask how old you are? Your Mum is pretty tolerant already letting you have King and a Lovebird - when I was at home I was only allowed a goldfish - until my Dad let me sneak a rabbit in unbeknown to my Mother

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Santa Monica CA
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxs_Mummy
    I don't think it's necessarily catching diseases from each other Judy but more if Zack picked anything up on his paws or you on your shoes and then transferred it back into the house where the cat is.
    i hadn't thought about that. It's something to weigh into the decision about vaccinating, the risks of tracking in germs against the health risks for the vaccinations, i need to learn more about what the risks are in my area of the different things that are vaccinated for in cats. In deciding, i need a vet i can trust. My trust in the one i've been seeing mainly is growing with experience. I'll talk to her about this.

    I upgraded Fluffy's health insurance recently and the 30 day waiting period ends on 7/19, where conditions noted before that date are excluded, so I am planning to take her in this month and will address all these things.

    Another thing I didn't mention in my list of concerns about vaccinations, or certain vaccination practices, is i don't believe a sick animal or an animal with potentially chronic immune system type problems should be routinely or automatically vaccinated--it should be a carefully considered decision, and if possible, vaccination should wait until the animal is clearly well.

    This probably sounds obvious, like a no brainer, but my experience ended up being that some vets are ready to vaccinate a sick animal, when it''s not even known what the diagnosis is. And i have to assume this is because they are very experienced and are assessing whatever the illness is to be not serious enough to hesitate. But my developing opinion is that i would rather err on the side of caution.

    When i first got zack and he had bloody diarrhea and i took him right to the vet, she suggested i finish his shots that day, all of them, the last puppy shot combo, the bordatella and the rabies. I think some day, this will no longer be standard practice, i think lots of vets are already thinking differently about this. People had said things to me that had scared me that zack was at high risk of catching the diseases until his vaccinations were finished so it seemed urgent to me, but i did say (just from what i konw from human experiences with illness) i would choose to postpone the vaccinations until zack's diarrhea was cleared upk because i didn't want to confuse what was going on.

    she gave him flagyl, the diarrhea cleared up the next day, i thought whatever the germ was was killed by the medication and it was all over--i still had a lot to learn, i didnt yet know that flagyl is an effective antidiarrheal medication independent of its antimicrobial effects, so it may not be killing whatever is causing the symptoms but it can still ease or make the symptoms go away. but i didn't know that then. I thought he was cured. So, the following weekend i came in and got his last puppy shot. but instinctively or intuitively, i still wasn't ok with getting the rabies and bordatella at the same time, that seemed like a lot of chaos to put his immune system through.

    He had been a happy energetic puppy, even with the diarrhea, but the day after the shot he was lethargic all day and the vaccination site was very sore. I thought this was to be expected. by the next day, the diarrhea was fully back. Did the shot lower his resistance, so that the worms or parasites or whatever it was could flare up and make him sick? No way of knowing but i wouldn't rule it out. I also had Advantage put on him that day, the day of the shot.

    Last Sunday i went to that same vet because my main vet was booked and i wanted someone to see those skin lesions and go over the blood test with me. When i checked in, the woman at the front desk asked me if i would be getting the rabies and bordatella shots that day. It's such a philosophical difference. I was bringing Zack in because he had been sick for three days and got lesions all over him--to me, a dog who has an undiagnosed possible immune problem or allergic reaction to something unknown, or signs of infection, should not be vaccinated--it can wait. but to some, since this is done without known ill effect in many animals, there is no reason to hesitate. (but such ill effects may not be noticed, and may be attributed to other causes and not noted as coinciding with the vaccinations).

    Additionally, if an animal has a chronic illness, particularly one involving the immune system, i might not ever vaccinate, depending on what the risks are in the animal's living circumstances of getting an illness protected against by the vaccination. I know there are vets who will write waivers for the rabies vaccination to excuse certain ill animals from complying with the rabies vaccination law.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    24,203
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default

    Judy, I would not postpone rabies if you are taking Zack out to parks and so forth. Not only is it dangerous to him but a potential health risk to YOU. Rabies is extremely painful to treat for any human exposed to it.

    Be aware that titers are not considered wholly reliable for testing for antibodies. So you are always leaving a window of risk for a dog that is tested on titers alone. I would not trust titers; instead I'd use the recommended spacing from Dr Jean Dodds and others of three years.

    eg: after the one year booster. three years for the general vax items is considered a safe distance apart. After age 6 or 7, I wouldn't bother to continue giving vaccines.

    If I were not vaccinating a dog that might have a weak immune system I also would NOT be taking that dog to areas where it can easily be exposed to all the things that could make it sick: eg dog parks, parks generally, walking in area frequented by other dogs, leaving in kennels, and so on.

    A big problem with not vaccinating annually and not giving bortadella isd that it will be very hard to find any kennel or boarding operation that will accept the dog. You only need to give bortadella a week or so before the dog goes into kennels, however.

    It is very rare for dogs to get something like kennel cough from a vaccine -- I have been told this is merely coincidence, that the dog was exposed at some period prior to the vaccine or before it was effective against KC. The flip side of this is, if you are exposing a dog to KC you are exposing it to risk of what can turn into pneumonia amd be very serious indeed. We have one list member who nearly lost their dog to KC-based pneumonia.

    More on titers from the ever useful Vetinfo.com site:

    Vaccinations and titers

    Question: What is your opinion of using titres to determine whether a dog should
    receive booster vaccinations? I have read in several articles that the
    current thinking is dogs are being vaccinated more often than is needed.
    [snip]
    ...It has now been three years since Russell has had any vaccinations except
    for rabies. One of the residents at the Veterinary Teaching Hospital
    suggested we have titres run to show his antibody level. We did this
    through our regular vet and the results showed that he's in good shape.
    Later when we mentioned this to another resident at the NC Vet Hospital she
    said no one really knows what these titres mean. So, Dr. Richards, what do
    you think (besides that we're way too overprotective of our dogs)?

    Thanks for any advice you have. I really enjoy reading the Digest every
    month, and I appreciate all the effort that goes into it and your website.

    Miriam

    Answer: Miriam-

    It is likely that dogs which are vaccinated yearly are vaccinated more
    often than is necessary for several diseases (the viral illnesses) and that
    they are not vaccinated as often as necessary to provide protection from
    others that are necessary in some situations (bacterial illnesses such as
    leptospirosis and bordetellosis). However, there is a great deal of
    controversy and confusion regarding this topic.

    One problem is that there are several vaccine strains used to provide
    protection for the various diseases vaccines protect against. Studies have
    generally looked at one or two vaccine strains and it is hard to be sure
    that all of them provide the same length of protection. However, I think it
    is likely that distemper vaccine provides protection for at least three
    years and that parvovirus vaccine probably provides lifelong protection
    after the one year booster is given. If vaccination for leptospirosis or
    bordetellosis is necessary for your dogs, these vaccines usually provide
    protection for less than a year.

    The major problem with using titers to evaluate when to give vaccines,
    other than expense, is that there isn't much agreement on what represents
    a protective titer at the present time. It is known that some dogs with
    high titers will develop distemper when exposed to the virus. It is also
    known that some dogs who have been vaccinated but who have no measurable
    titer will resist infection when exposed to the virus. The only really
    reliable way to tell how long a vaccine will provide protection is to do
    challenge studies -- to vaccinate a group of dogs and then expose them to
    the virus after specified intervals, to determine how long the vaccine will
    provide protection. Ideally, this would be done by each vaccine
    manufacturer or an independent party willing to test every vaccine strain.
    Once it is known how long a vaccine provides protection, it would be easier
    to figure out reasonable vaccination intervals.

    At the present time, the best approach to deciding how frequently to
    vaccinate is to evaluate the potential risks to the patient of the virus
    and then the potential risks of the vaccine and then to balance those
    against the need for protection. I think that it is usually safe to go to
    longer vaccine intervals and that three years is reasonable at this time.

    Mike Richards, DVM
    9/15/2000


    Distemper vaccine

    Question: This is in regard to a reply by Mike Richards, DVM about concerns of
    distemper. In his reply he states "Some people think that the solution
    to the "window of opportunity" for the virus -- the time when it will cause disease even
    if a puppy has been vaccinated --- is simply to vaccinate more frequently. The flaw in this
    logic is that there are studies that demonstrate that vaccines for the same
    virus administered closer to two weeks apart may interfere with each
    other -- and lead to DECREASED immune response. Plus, no matter how frequently
    vaccines are given there is a short time period when the puppy is not
    protected. We choose a three week interval for vaccinations at our
    practice, starting at six weeks, just because it seems like a reasonably
    practical interval. "

    I would like to know the references he used for this statement as a DVM
    I know vaccinates puppies every 2 weeks until 16 weeks and I am
    concerned we may be vaccinating too much. I would like to pass his
    refernces to the Dr.

    Thank You Mark


    Answer: Mark-

    The concept of antigenic interference is mentioned in several textbooks but
    I have had a hard time tracking down the initial research on it. However,
    there is a study done in greyhounds (search on "McMillen GL" on the PubMed
    web site to find it) that examines this concept. In this study, there was
    no particular benefit, nor any particular disadvantage, to vaccinating very
    frequently, although there was slightly (key word -- not significant, just
    slightly) better immune responses in the dogs vaccinated less frequently.

    Of course, there is a lot to be said for vaccinating less frequently if it
    works just as well.

    I am glad that you sent your question, as it made me search again for
    information on this topic.

    Mike Richards, DVM
    3/2/2000
    Link -- http://www.vetinfo.com/dogvacc.html#...20and%20titres

    I don't think that vaccinating has any effect on SM -- they shouldn't be connected at all. Unless the dog is very ill from SM I'd vaccinate. I vax Leo for example and would never not consider doing this as long as he is out and about and exposed to other dogs and the areas those dogs frequent. I always ask that the vax be given in a leg however, not the neck.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Tansy : Mindy Connie Roxy Neasa Gus
    In memory: My beautiful Jaspar Lucy Leo Lily Libby

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •