• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

CRATING WOES...

QCS

Active member
I have had my LilyBelle just shy of a week now, and I need night time crating advice, please! She howls and cries sooooo loudly and bites at the cage door so hard, she has cut her gums. I worry that if I leave her in as the "books" say, she'll really hurt herself - or become so traumatized by the crate that she'll NEVER want to go in. As a result, the past 2 nights she's been sleeping with me. What should I do? :?
 
Oh no! Poor you and poor LillyBelle :(

I think I'm one of the only people on here who has never used a crate so i'm not able to help you but it is perfectly natural for them to want to be with us all the time - that's bred into them and you won't change it!

Are you happy with her sleeping with you? If not, could you put her in the kitchen in her bed with one of those snuggle pups or something?

Maxx slept in his bed in our kitchen when we first got him and he was fine - we put a piece of bedding that smelled of his doggy mummy in with him and he was fine.

If you can't do this then what about a DAP diffuser - it mimics the smell of the lactating female and so comforts them.

I know lots will disagree with me but a crate isn't the be all and end all of it. Maxx is actually fine when he goes to the Vets or Groomers and has to be crated btw but i couldn't have imagined leaving him in one as a pup.
 
Have you tried putting the crate in the bedroom??

Since you've started letting him sleep with you, you've set a precedent so it will be much harder to get the dog sleep quietly in the crate now. (Boy, dont I know it!!)

If the crate doesnt work, you can try putting the dog in a room or in an ex pen.

It's really hard to have patience when you're sleep deprived, so just do the best you can.
 
I started her off by putting the crate in the bedroom so she could see us. The only way I was able to do that, was to let her fall asleep on me then carrying her quietly into her crate. She was fine then, but only til around midnight or so. The only reasons I would like to crate her are: if she falls off the bed, or has to releive herself. Last night she did good with a last potty at 10:00P.M. But the other night she peed on the bed. Not what you want to wake to! :yuk: LOL I feel like I have to either let her cry and howl and possibly hurt herself, or take the chance of getting peed on at night. :? Maxxs Mummy: where can I find a DAP diffuser?
 
When Cedar was a pup, we crated her from day one. We had to get up at least once a night to take her out, though. Their bladders just arent big enough to hold it all night. When your pup wakes up around midnight, she may just need to go out to potty.

If you really want to crate train her, you might have to do some positive training during the day. Does your pup go in her crate on her own during the day? If so, that's good; she doesnt hate the crate. If not, you might have to start from scratch with some treats and encouragement and only short periods of time in her crate to work your way up to a full night.

You can put an old shirt of yours in the crate to give your smell. Setting the crate up in the bedroom is also helpful. Snuggle puppies seem to be popular as well.

Even if you do all this, the pup will still need to go out at night for a few weeks probably.
 
If you wish to crate train, I'd work to crate train during the day and find an alternative at night. I only tried crating for a few nights when Jaspar was a puppy then never bothered after that. He was crate trained (with a minimalist approach as part of housetraining -- and now that they do accept the crate, I never leave them in crates during the day or night, using them only for transport. However they are quite content to use the crate when staying at the woman's who minds them -- she crates all the dogs at night. Jaspar and Leo stay together in a large crate then).

There's no 'rule' that says ANY dog needs to be crate trained, and if anything I think crates are seriously overused. For proof, look at how many puppy training sites advise that you can crate a puppy for 5+ hours after age five months!! Crating a puppy for hours and hours goes so against everything puppies are about, to me. I've found crates are hardly used by anyone in Europe outside people who show dogs BTW -- everyone I know in Ireland keeps the dog in the house or a room, never a crate, and never crates at night (I'm sure there are those who do crate, but honestly, amongst all my many dog owning friends and rescue contacts, no one crates their own dogs). Crating seems to be a phenomenon that developed in the US over the last decade or two; I'm still not sure why it became such a norm -- I presume maybe it was advocated by some of the TV dog trainers or maybe the internet has spread its use.

Let me be clear that I do find it useful to have a crate-trained dog. And I respect other people's choices and approaches. But even during training, one needn't stick the pup or dog in a crate for hours. And I strongly feel most dogs would be much happier confined in a room, rather than a crate if being left alone. Some dogs end up spending a significant amount of their lives in a crate -- easily half their lives, if crated at night and during a full workday five days a week, which to me raises questions about quality of life. We would be shocked if zoo animals were kept in such cramped quarters for so many hours. Most dogs would be very happy to have the kitchen to themselves or a utility room in the hours people are away, if they have a bed, water, some toys. Then they can play with the toys, get up and move around and stretch, have a sniff; but they don't have the run of the house.

So think about why you are crating and if you need to crate at all. Most people find it useful to have a dog that they can put in a crate for various reasons. So, I would certainly use a crate to help with housebreaking, which will effectively crate train your dog so that it is happy enough being transported in a crate or confined if necessary (use Shirlee Kalstone's book on housetraining a dog in seven days).

At night I have always had the dogs in my room but they will also sleep in another room on their own, or in a crate if required (this is nice for travel). When I go out durting the day I keep all three in one room -- either my office where they have a sofa to themselves, or a bedroom, where they sleep but sometimes play, or sit and look out the window to pass comments on the neighbour cats. :)

If your puppy is harming herself chewing on a crate I'd not force her to stay in one and/or I'd find a different model of crate where she can't hurt herself in this way. She doesn't need to sleep in your room if you don;t want, but why not then leave her in the kitchen with a snugglepuppy and some toys, inside an X-pen for example to keep her more confined and help with housebreaking?
 
know lots will disagree with me but a crate isn't the be all and end all of it. Maxx is actually fine when he goes to the Vets or Groomers and has to be crated btw but i couldn't have imagined leaving him in one as a pup.

Donna, I've found almost every one of the rescues I've had -- not a single one crate-trained -- were content enough to sit in a crate for transport and most are fine in one for short periods anyway, especially if there's a person sitting with them. I've had to manage dogs in my house like this many times because of the cats. My dog-minder Margaret, who crates all the dogs she boards at night, puts all these un-crate-trained dogs into large crates and rarely ever has had a single problem, she has told me. I've been around plenty of crate trained dogs that whine and bark when in a crate as well so it is hard for me to even see if at the end of the day, there's any huge advantage to formal crate training for 90% of people. I think if the crate is left open as a 'den' most dogs will get used to it ad accept transport and so on, without going through the ritual of hours of confinement and 'training'. This was true of Leo -- perfectly happy in a crate, never crate-trained. Lily as well.

So: experience suggests to me that actually, as you have found too, you can easily train a dog to accept a crate for all the basic reasons you'd use one -- transport or short term confinement -- without elaborate training, and for me anyway, there's no real argument to keep a puppy or a dog in one for hours in order to crate train it unless the intention is to regularly leave the dog in a crate for hours. If the latter is indeed the intention, then I'd just suggest people think through whether this is really necessary and why -- and consider using a room instead. :) My own contrarian opinion that goes against much that has become the 'norm' but I don't think the norm -- because it is convenient -- is necessarily right. It's worth thinking through these issues if only so that people feel confirmed in their own decisions, but also, remember decisions are always worth re-examining regularly too to be sure they still fit circumstances and philosophy.
 
I have to say that i would agree with Karlin a lot! I had never even heard of a crate until i joined this website - maybe that is just me being naive but all of my friends with dogs also leave them in a particular room - usually the kitchen or utility room - when at night or when leaving them alone.

I know that the puppy will pee and poop when you are out but if in a kitchen or utility where the floor is perhaps tiled or easy to clean? I always left Bailey in the utility room at night because it was warmer and a little smaller in the dark for him. But when i go out i leave him the downstairs of the house - he is a little older now and won't pee or poop in the house but when he was younger he just had the run of the utility room and the kitchen.

He has always been very happy with this scenario and has his toys his bed and food and water. Having said that i think we will get another dog to keep him company while we are at work - he usually just settles down for sleeps when i am out and he has never seemed stressed or worried leaving him or when i come home.

We have a little goodbye ritual where he sits on the stairs to get a cuddle and a kiss and he watches me go out and then i wave through the little window at him and he goes and cuddles his teddies on the couch till i come back!! So cutE!!

I don't like the idea of a dog being left in a crate at night or during the day and am sure that it is not enough room for them at either time - i think confining them to a room is better and it gives the dog a room to call their own as opposed to a little space not much bigger than themselves!

Bailey has a little bed that he sleeps in and now he is bigger he usually sleeps in the room with us but in his bed. Although he might decide to sleep on the landing if it is too hot!!

Anyway i think that there are many solutions better than maybe crating them but saying that i have never used one so maybe my opinions are not valid - i just don't like the idea of them - sorry!!

Maria & Bailey
 
Why do people crate train for the house?

I only use a crate in an emergency (illness) or when tiny pups as a safe den, always with the door open and covered over with a blanket....somewhere safe to have a rest!

Let your puppy use the house and garden and just provide a nice dog bed for naps and to lay in near you in, I don't personally see why people get upset and find it a "must" to use these thing.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.
 
Alison_Leighfield said:
Why do people crate train for the house?

I only use a crate in an emergency (illness) or when tiny pups as a safe den, always with the door open and covered over with a blanket....somewhere safe to have a rest!

Let your puppy use the house and garden and just provide a nice dog bed for naps and to lay in near you in, I don't personally see why people get upset and find it a "must" to use these thing.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Safety, health, convenience-

If I didn't feed in crates- I wouldn't be able to guarantee that the pups would get any food. If I didn't give Kongs, chews etc... in crates I would have fights.
There is no way I could possibly make my home totally puppy proof-- too many cords, tables and humans running around.
Housetraining would be much harder without the crate-- IF (and when) the pups urinate in the house-- the males think they can mark over it and (you get the picture) Sandy
 
Sandy,

I think if perhaps you are a breeder your situation might be slightly different.

I thought we were talking about 1 pup in this instance, in a family home? and an owner being concerned and worried
about her pups possible dislike to the crate, and the very possible harm that she could do to herself?

It isn't always the best thing for every puppy to be crated, your reasons are quite different.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.
 
That's a good point, Sandy; with multiple dogs there can be good reasons people choose to use crates.

I have four large crates and two smalls BTW -- I do think they are a very useful tool for transport and when needed to separate dogs (I don;t have a lot of doors in my house nor a garden, so it is harder to manage new rescues waiting to go to a foster).

My objections to them are that they are clearly overused in some cases (to the point where you wonder whether a dog was the best option for some people) -- and probably not really necessary in many more cases. Especially with only one or two dogs that mix well. I haven't needed them yet for managing three. :lol: Though all three will fit in a single crate quite happily for short transport. :drivecar:
 
That is true! They can be overused leaving the dogs to feel neglected. But they aren't evil-- If I had one to three dogs-- I probably would not use a crate (except in transport). I would use an x-pen until the dog was housetrained and section off parts of the house for them to safely use.
Sandy
 
Karlin,

You and I are obviously on the same wavelength! Alison too as I know that her dogs have the run of her enormous kitchen/breakfast room and conservatory when she's out (her house is doggie heaven!).

I'm sorry but if someone wants a caged animal then they should buy a hamster! That's not meant as a slight to you mind QCS so please don't be offended. It's meant for the people who buy pups and then crate them whilst they are at work all day every day, let them out for an hour or two in the evenings and then put them back again at night :x

Sandy,

I can understand you and other breeders using crates for feeding etc - as you have said it is sometimes a necessity but as I said previously, I don't understand people using crates for the majority of a dogs life.

When Maxx was younger he just had the kitchen and utility room & when I ended up with four cavaliers for a weekend (I'd arranged to look after the little boy over the back and also my friend's mum & daughter on the same weekend) they all stayed in the kitchen/utility. It was warm and comfy for them and it kept them all happy & feeling safe. There were dog beds everywhere though & hubby had a surprise when he came home from work at 6.30am and opened the kitchen door to be greeted by not one, but, four babies :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I believe there is a benefit to having a dog that is familiar and comfortable staying in a crate for a given amount of time. For example, when visiting others' homes, it is helpful to have a dog that you can leave safely in a crate while you go out to dinner or something. It would be considered rude, at least in my midwestern USA culture, to assume you could bring a dog over to someone's house and expect the dog to stay inside unsupervised, even if the host has said it is okay to bring the dog. If you left the dog in an ex-pen, you are still exposing the host's floors to damage (from even a well behaved/trained animal). While some people may feel they can pick and choose their family/friends according to how these people feel about dogs in their homes, I'm not at the point where I will do that. If it means being able to take my dog with me versus not going or even finding separate arrangements for the dog, I would much rather have a crate trained dog that goes with me. So if you plan to travel with your dog, not only is crate training possibly important for travel (I prefer to use a carseat, myself), but it is also important when you arrive at your destination.

Perhaps Karlin's observation of a cultural difference in the use of crates, European/Ireland/UK in comparison to US has more to do with other cultural aspects aside from perceived dog care. What is considered polite dog owner behavior can also make a difference.

Crate training has its other uses, as mentioned elsewhere, but I hesitate to dismiss crate usage as unnecessary in a single, or even double, dog home.

It is also important to note that, in any culture, in any country, a dog left alone for 5-8 hours a day, whether in a crate, in a garden, or left free to roam in the house unrestrained is improperly cared for, IMHO.
 
I love this free exchange of ideas-- and hopefully the dogs will benefit from what we all learn. Staying in hotel rooms (vacations, dog shows) is another good place where crates can and probably should be used. Sandy
 
Donna,

Your tri-color animated graphic in your post's signature caught Willow's attention. She literally crawled across my lap and stepped on the keyboard (laptop) to sniff and inspect the little guy!! :lol:
 
Moviedust said:
So if you plan to travel with your dog, not only is crate training possibly important for travel (I prefer to use a carseat, myself), but it is also important when you arrive at your destination.

Well, from my own point of view. I either take my dogs to extremely dog friendly friends or leave them home with a dog sitter & I also have doggy seat belts in the car so a crate most definitely is no a necessity in my home. We've almost always had a dog and I've never owned a crate - i don't intend to either!

Moviedust said:
Perhaps Karlin's observation of a cultural difference in the use of crates, European/Ireland/UK in comparison to US has more to do with other cultural aspects aside from perceived dog care. What is considered polite dog owner behavior can also make a difference.

Maybe it has but then here in UK if people didn't want you to take your dog and have them treat their home as their own then they would say no to you bringing them. I think maybe we are more direct!

Moviedust said:
Crate training has its other uses, as mentioned elsewhere, but I hesitate to dismiss crate usage as unnecessary in a single, or even double, dog home.

As I said earlier (and I am not arguing about it or about to fall out with anyone over it), I disagree & I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! Maybe for breeders they are a necessity and I can see why but they are most certainly not for me.

Moviedust said:
It is also important to note that, in any culture, in any country, a dog left alone for 5-8 hours a day, whether in a crate, in a garden, or left free to roam in the house unrestrained is improperly cared for, IMHO.

Too darned right and I have only ever left my dogs alone for a maximum of 3-4 hours on an odd occasion. Luckily, my hubby and son both work shifts and I have some wonderful Cavalier loving friends and neighbours, so if I ever need to go anywhere that I can't take them (rarely) I always have someone I can leave a key with. When we had to go to my sister-in-laws funeral a few months back, it was a 2 hour drive away and so my friend came and dog sat for me for most of the time we were out.

Incidentally, I only work occasionally and wouldn't even entertain the idea of having a puppy or dog whilst I was still working long hours.
 
Moviedust said:
Donna,

Your tri-color animated graphic in your post's signature caught Willow's attention. She literally crawled across my lap and stepped on the keyboard (laptop) to sniff and inspect the little guy!! :lol:

Tell her to watch her nose - he gives a nasty lick :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
WoodHaven said:
I love this free exchange of ideas-- and hopefully the dogs will benefit from what we all learn. Staying in hotel rooms (vacations, dog shows) is another good place where crates can and probably should be used. Sandy

Ditto on the exchange of ideas. That's one thing that we could have more of on the board, I think. Sometimes it is easy to think that the way you've chosen to care for your dogs is the "right" way, when it really is just the way it works for you. When someone is asking for advice, I think it is important that we dont run into the situation where everyone thinks there's just one way to do it. It doesnt make for the best advice, at all! It can also leave the new cav owners feeling that they've somehow done something wrong, adding to the stress and anxiety they might be feeling.

In this instance, I dont feel anyone who suggests using a crate is suggesting its abuse. And I certainly dont think that anyone who opts not to use a crate is somehow putting their dog in harm's way. There are certainly different philosophies and opinions, though, and each of those different ideas deserves space on the board.
 
Back
Top