CRATING WOES...

Here, here!

Whoa - what did I start?? LOL It has certainly helped me to read all of your feedback on this issue - as I myself was shocked the first time I ever heard of crate training.

My friend had told me she crated her Maltese at night, and every time she went out on an errand. I was appalled by that, but recently learning that not only is it accepted, it's recommended, I second guessed my "puppy smarts". When I was a child, we let our pets have run of the house - otherwise, why have them?

My main concern is, as I stated earlier, to crate for safety and housebreaking purposes only. I would LOVE to sleep with LilyBelle all night; if she continues to do well with hubby and I, that's wonderful. (As long as she doesn't fall off the bed)

I guess the lesson learned here is - in some situations it's better to listen to your heart instead of a book - we all live different lifestyles, so what's good for the goose, may not always be good for the gander.

My husband and I got our 8 week old Cav just under a week ago and are using some crate training. We haven't had any problems thus far but then again its really too soon to know for sure.

Weekdays we put his crate with the door open inside an x-pen which is literally filled with toys and Huey sleeps in his crate every night.

Although we work from 8 - 5 we spend every waking moment we have at home with Huey. We try to keep him pretty active, letting him follow and chase us around, going on short walks, up and down the small hill in front of our house and up and down the stairs, tickling him etc. We don't go to bed until around 11 pm - 12 am and by that time he's usually pooped. The only thing I can say is it certainly helps to tire him out before we put him in the crate.

I'm no expert but maybe this will help even a little!

No crates for our guys either they had the kitchen and lower hallway - I cut out a bit of wood to stick across the stairs as they could'nt climb them then - beds and toys and water and paper/wee mats were in the kitchen and anything that was chewable....... now they are fine and have the whole downstairs, stairs and landing. We tried Busta downstairs first of all but that didn't work and they are all in our bedroom - we just put down wee mats in the bedroom and landing.

I only ever use a crate for Milly and soley for transport reasons. She is quite happy to hop in when she knows she's going out to the beach or in the car for travelling. I only bought it for her as I feel when in the car it is the safest place for her (Shes only 3 months old). Elliot sits with his seat belt on, so hopefully when she gets a little older she can do the same. I also will be using it when I go back to dog training (Tara and Lisa, DTI) in Sept. It is very useful when you are bringing the 2 dogs up, and when both are in separate classes, usually one after the other.

Saying all of that, I would never crate either of my 2 at home ever, both have the kitchen when I'm out (3/4 hrs max), and I sometimes use a big x-pen for Milly.

I do not agree with crating dogs for reasons other than transport, ill health, etc. and hate to think any dog would be locked in a crate for long periods .

Wow...this is an interesting exchange of ideas! I crate Jake and Shelby at night. The reason we started with Jake was that we had a 13 year old cat at the time who didn't much care for a puppy. So, from the first night he slept in a crate for his own safety. Couldn't exactly crate the cat! :shock: The cat had passed by the time we got Shelby but since Jake was so used to the crate and we slept so much better without him in the bed we crated Shelby as well. When we vacation with the dogs they both sleep in the bed with us...and let me tell you....neither hubby nor myself gets a very good night's sleep. Both of my guys go very happily to their crate at night. We have a super soft cushion in there and of course Shelby's puppy (she likes to use it as a pillow) and Jake's pink bunny. They have never given us a problem with the crate.

I crated both of them as puppies when I left the house. Maximum of 4 hours. I did this because I didn't want them roaming and my house is difficult to close off. Plus, they were so comfortable in their crates from sleeping in them at night that it wasn's an issue.

I think the important thing about crating is to make it a good place. If you dog (like Lilybelle) is harming herself because she dislikes the crate that much...don't do it! It's not worth her hurting herself. The idea of the crate is safety and comfort.

If you do want to crate her I would gradually work her into the crate. From the day we brought Jake home I would put him in the crate several times a day when he was falling asleep. He would be relaxed going in. Once he woke up I let him spend 5 minutes or so in the crate before letting him out.

I am thrilled with my crates!! They have been an incredible help for when Shelby had her knee surgery and had to be confined. No issues with her being crated. They have also been a big help when I've fostered. I cannot feed everyone together. Fights!!!

It's all a matter of what fits you and what you're comfortable with. My prime example of crating is when my brother in law said "so, they use it like I use my bedroom, a place to be alone and relax", Yep, that says it all. They are both totally relaxed in their crates and know they are "off duty".

I am new here....so I will introduce myself (Nancy) and tell you that I have two cavaliers. Maxwell is 20 months old and Jack is 4.5 months old.

Maxwell and Jack are both crate trained (Jack more than Maxwell). We started crate training from day one when we brought them home from our breeder. Maxwell spent very little time in his crate in the daytime but slept the night peacefully in his crate. He did not like the crate much to begin with so I did several things to make the crate more interesting. At bedtime, we would take our sleepy boy and potty him outside. Then when he came back in he would get a treat as he was being put in his crate. Really it wasn't much. Maxwell always tollerated his crate at night but didn't love it. Jack, our new boy, loves his crate. We use the same process, but Jack is much more food motivated that Maxwell was. Jack goes out to potty at bedtime and RACES to his crate because he knows his treat is in there. The treat can be nothing more than a couple of Charlie Bears or a Kong with peanutbutter rubbed on the inside. Jack loves crate time.

Maxwell now sleeps on our bed and Jack is still a crate boy. Maxwell did slip back at about five months old and started getting up at night to potty in the house so we went back to step one with him and started crating again. Since then, we have not had one potty accident in the house.

I am totally against using the crate for long periods of time. I do believe that dogs are den animals and do not view the crate as a "bad" thing unless it is abused. I never use the crate as punishment.

Recently, I took Jack to a dog show and he was crated when he was not with me. I would go to dinner and leave Jack for the very most an hour and a half so have a nice dinner. The rest of the time he was out and about.

Both of my dogs ride together in their crate in the car and are quite happy. I even hear games of "bitey face" going on while they are riding in the car.

If you view the crate as a "bad" thing, odds are your dog will also. However, using a crate responsibly really helps in potty training, travel and those odd times when you are away from home and need a safe place for your pup.

During the day, Jack's crate sits in our family room as a safe place for Jack to crawl in (with the door open) when the grandkids visit. All three young children understand that the crate is Jack's safe place and they must not touch him if he goes in there.

Nancy

My dogs are crate-trained, but onley for transporting, like many of you hava said.
During night, they sleep in a little room in the carage (Isn't it writed that way?) and they are very happy with that. In that room, we have an crate which is open, so the can walk in and out of it like they want, a little basket to sleep in, toys and food and water. They stay there also when we are in work and school.
There where never a problame to let them stay in a crate, but Nóra where very scared of going in the car. We allways tooke her with us, even if ve where just going to the shop, and soon she got used to it.

Moviedust said:

It is also important to note that, in any culture, in any country, a dog left alone for 5-8 hours a day, whether in a crate, in a garden, or left free to roam in the house unrestrained is improperly cared for, IMHO.

Click to expand...

Why is 5 hours improperly cared for? I have school 4 days a week and there are times I will be gone for 5 hours while at school. Than during finals there were days I was gone 5-8 hours. Most people can't be home all day every day. Are those dogs uncared for just because their owners work or go to school?

I waited 16 yrs until I had a much wanted dog so that I was home 24/7.

I wouldn't dream of leaving a puppy 5-8 hrs a day, how can that be cared for? I don't know many breeders or rescue homes either that would be happy letting a pup go to a home where it would be left that long. Perhaps an older dog for a few hrs every day, for example with a part time job, but never a youngster for that time....

If my situation changed now and I became unable to stay home I would employ a dog sitter/dog walker to break up their day, can you do this perhaps?

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

I tink my main issue with crates is that we have had this line for some time, that dogs are den animals and love crates as they are substitute dens. But where did this oipinion that a den constituting a crate only large enough for the dog to turn around, would be a satisfactory place for a dog to spend more that a few hours or overnight? I haven't found a believable answer to that yet; it seems to have emerged as a given on the basis of little more that that it must be so because we find it convenient for it to be so.

One could equally argue that wolves are den animals, or wild dogs. But imagine going to a zoo where all these animals were locked into cages barely large enough for them to turn around -- and you were told, 'They are very happy in there, they only sleep during the day. They don't want to get up and move around.' I do not think there's a zoo left that considers such a small space a satisfactory enclosure for an animal for hours on end. A wild dog's den also isn't a tiny enclosed space, but a large space in which the dogs get up, shift around, and resettle, or play for a bit, or go out into the sunshine, interact, or whatever. I'm home most of the time with the three I have and they would never stay in one small spot for the day or more than a couple of hours. If I tried to enclose them for a long period, even though they are crate trained, they would start to whine to get out.

So are long hours in a crate remotely natural, or are they something we train our dogs to tolerate -- after all they are highly trainable -- because it is more convenient for us to manage them in this way? I feel the latter is true, and therefore feel that while some basic crate training is useful, that most dogs will accept a crate as needed anyway and needn't be assigned to long hours every week in a crate in order to train them to accept such confinement, nor should they be left in such a small space as a ruti re way of 'keeping them out of trouble. (surely an enclosed room with anything valued up off the floor will keep them out of trouble, in a happier, more comfortable environment?).

Over time I have also become more and more uncomfortable with the regularity with which crating is used during daytime, and how it has somehow, in the space of a decade or two, passed into the norm of what you do with your dog when you are gone for hours.

I think all of us have to be *persuaded* at first that crating a dog is acceptable to a dog. We all initially feel this is too small a space and cannot be acceptable for long periods. Then we are told by a vague 'they' -- on the basis of little more that 'they say' that dogs think it is their den, that dogs really find it fine to spend a day in a crate -- that this is the best way to confine a dog.

I haven't been able to find anything authoritative that supports this stance for either the size of space or the time that is now routinely recommended as 'acceptable' periods for a dog to be crated. Yes, dogs and canids use a den but never something so small, for so long, as is used to enclose dogs these days.

How do we go from a gut feeling that this isn't right, to being persuaded in large numbers that dogs will be very happy in such a small space? This would have been a totally unacceptable view when I was younger (eg 60s, 70s and 80s), before a household had two people out working all day. I can remember when I first encountered crate trained dogs (early 90s) -- they went into their crates for the night and my mother and I thought it very strange.

Crating for longer than 30 -45 minutes when housetraining went so against what, for me, seemed like a fulfilling, stimulating life for a puppy that I could never do this to Jaspar. I'd crate him in the time leading up to when he would need to do his wees and poops, as a method of helping create a routine, and rarely for longer than 20-30 minutes. And then he was out being a puppy and playing. This worked very well. I did the whole routine of encouraging him to use the crate and see it as his 'den' and he was having none of it. He'd go in if he had to and that was it.

That said, all three including Lily, never crate trained in her life, will happily go into a crate for transport or to sleep overnight or anything I might need it for within a modest usage framework. Jaspar in particular associates the crate with going somewhere inteeresting and he goes right into it when I have it in the car. But I cannot imagine using it as a place they would stay all day, every day, when I am out. If I am to be out and away, they go into a room, they get water and a treat, they have toys and a place to lay, they play a bit and sleep and sit and watch traffic go by and do other do things.

So I am of the opinion now that it is a useful tool in a range of circumstances but I am not persuaded that it is appropriate for long term confinement when an x-pen or room would be more appropriate.

Karlin, that was so well written and I agree with it all. I'm one of the people who still find it extremely strange that anyone would want to crate a dog other than to transport it (or to feed pups, like Sandy said). I do not think it is any life for any animal to be shut in a cage. I refuse to visit most zoos and the like, preferring safari parks.

I got extremely upset at the small enclosure the Polar Bears were in at SeaWorld in Florida and told the guards so. I informed them they should be sent on a visit to our Bristol Zoo as it's a conservation centre and the Polar Bears have a massive enclosure. they seemed interested but probably thought I was mad :roll:

We used to have rabbits and the only time they spent in their huge hubby made hutch and run was at night time or when it was snowy & they didn't want to come out. Some dog cages are smaller than my rabbit hutch was

I'm sorry if it upsets anyone but I still think that if you are out at work all day then you shouldn't have a dog, least of all a Cavalier. I waited years to get a dog as I wouldn't have one to leave him/her at home alone all day. it was only when i went part time and my hubby works shifts anyway that we took the plunge. I feel guilty if I leave my two any longer than a couple of hours, let alone all day.

I do think there are many ways of creatively managing dogs for people who work during the day. Many have posted to this board in the past about some of the ways they find work well. I live alone and can;t always be home with the dogs -- sometimes I have to be out for a good while -- but at this point I know they get along well and manage fine when I am away. They are always happy when I get back but after a lot of excitement they all mainly settle down and sleep some more. :lol:

I also think many people who are home all day don't give a very rewarding life to their dogs. I've seen this first hand from rescue work -- nothing makes me sadder than a cavalier that has spent its life out in a garden, ignored, but that is the case with some of the cavaliers that come into rescue.

Personally, I don't think it is so much a matter of whether people work or not as what kind of arrangements are there for the dog(s) when they are not at home, and what sort of overall life the dog has.

Certainly I think two dogs is a better option than one for a dog home alone much of the day. So there's an excuse for everyone to have at least two cavaliers or to go find a 'Gus' of their own!! 8)

Its a hard one to comment on - Darren and I work all day - I am lucky that I can leave late in the morning, come home at lunch time or leave early in the afternoon.

I really don't think my guys worry that much, they have a walk in the morning and if I get home for lunchtime they look at me to say why have you woken us up.

I used to feel guilty in the very beginning but now with the three (playing or sleeping) then I am happy to leave them for 6 hours.

My pups are over three months old, and for the last 2 weeks or more have been getting crate-trained at night, for longer and longer periods of time(the newspaper method failed dismally). I set the alarm, get up, leave em out, say the command word "caca" and wait for them to do their business. After they do, I immediately give them food reward and return them to the crate for the rest of the night. Before they go into their crate for the night, I bring them to the beach for a good run around, then feed and water them at home, and finally give them a chance to eliminate. They run into the crate at night, because I leave a few treats in their cage for them to hunt. I bid them good night, and leave the room promptly. Routine is the same every night.

They voluntarily go into the crate during the day, if they are in the kitchen.

I leave them outside in the back garden during the day, occasionally playing with them or bringing them for a walk in the local green. They pee and poo in the back garden to their heart's content. If I leave them indoors during the day for a few hours, they are still very likely to do their business on the floor.

If I catch them doing their business on the floor, I immediately say "No!", lift them and put them outside.

Toilet-training a dog is a lot of work!

Potty training a dog is alot of work. 3 of mine are crate trained. The last puppy we got at 12 weeks old and did not crate train him as we are both now retired and home full time. He took alot longer to potty train w/o using a crate. We had to recently start crate training him for several reasons. Rides in the car, short stays at the vet, trips to the groomers all require crates. And he is NOT happy. Howls unmercifully. It is much harder to get him used a crate now that he is older.

We have some crates in the house with open doors and all of the dogs go in their on their own and take naps, etc. They will also go there when my grandchildren are visiting and they are tired. My grandchildren know to leave them alone then.

While there are many pros and cons to how long and when you crate a dog, as Karlin so eloquently outlines, I do agree they should be trained to view a crate as a good experience in case one is every needed.

Cockerspaniel,

You say you leave them outside all day - I hope it's not too hot where you are or it could kill them

Also, dog napping is on the increase and both Cavaliers and Cockers are quite regularly stolen to order

Do they have access to a kennel or the like? I personally wouldn't leave either breed of spaniel outside all day long, they are not outdoor dogs.

My patio door is usually open all day long for the dogs as 9 times out of 10 there is someone here with them. However, the other day, we still had a pee from Charlie on the washable rug right by the door :roll:

Tbh, if you have dogs you should really expect the occasional accident and with pups you should be prepared for the pees and poops :lol:

I'm not having a go at you btw, I just personally think that maybe the dogs should be kept in a room together whilst you are out with some pee pads or paper on the floor & not in the garden.

MM, I greatly appreciate the constructive advice. Tell me what you think of the following: I'm open to instruction, as I'm new to the dog thing!

As I live in the west of Ireland, it rarely gets too hot. I have a very fine kennel outdoors for them to hop in and out of whenever they want. The kennel is just outside the patio door and they can see inside into the kitchen if they position themselves near the kennel doorway. I have several pieces of garden furniture also under which they can plonk themselves if they want, as well as many nooks and crannies. During the recent heatwave here, I kept the patio door open and they could stay in the kitchen if they so wished.

We live in suburbia, so we have a 57 foot by 36 foot back garden which is completely enclosed and secure. We have trees and shrubbery which they love to spend time in. I go out to them frequently during the day and play with them outside changing their toys to bring variety into their day, or bringing them for a walk on the local green, etc. From sometime in September onwards, they will be brought indoors until the following summer. When I'm back teaching, they'll have to entertain each other during our absence during the day, except for an hour at lunchtime, when my husband is home or when a dog walker comes in. I am currently planning to build a decent sized puppy room (subject to planning permission) which will have a dog hatch through which they can go in and out as they please and where they can pee and poo without that causing too much hassle. And - most importantly - LINO on the floor (it's the easiest to clean!).

I left the patio door open quite a bit today and had two poos and about six wees. Too much. It's as if my 6 weeks of toilet training has born no fruit whatsoever! And this, despite hovering around them for a lot of time, watching for signs and giving them plenty of time and encouragement to do the business outside...Boo hoo!

I cannot even begin to imagine all the dangerous things that could happen to puppies, even grown dogs, if left alone in the yard, bee stings, predators ( some large birds have been known to fly off with puppies) , eating things dangerous or poisonous, , even beating each other up too roughly or getting stuck somewhere.

Time for a change in strategy.

Righto. I'm going to give my dogs a salary raise.

Performance related pay and all of that.

From now on, outside "business" will be rewarded by pieces of good-quality cooked chicken, rather than by the Coachies. Coachies will be reserved for lesser work done, such as sitting down on command and giving the paw.

Will report back...