I need a pep talk!

I'm at my wits' end with this puppy! She spends about 90% of her waking hours biting us. We are constantly correcting her and we've tried everything recommended in all the books, websites, etc. including advice from a conversation with her breeder, who also shows cavaliers in obedience. I had poodle puppies growing up, and they did nip, but this dog out & out bites! She's drawn blood on me more than once. I'm trying all the bite inhibition things people have recommended, and we've found that she is completely insensitive to us yelling ouch, screaming out in pain, or my kids breaking into tears from her bites! I'm beginning to wonder if she's all there personality-wise. I have always wanted a cavalier because of the sweet temperament, but frankly, I don't see much of it in her. I researched breeders sooooo carefully, and paid a huge amount of money for her because I wanted so badly to get a good, healthy dog. Right now, I'm feeling like I've made a mistake, despite all my care in selecting her.

She's an angel with people she doesn't know, all wiggles and licks, and with us she is basically a terror. She had my daugher in tears 3 times today, and she is about to wear me down. From everything I've read, I don't think that she's trying to dominate us, I think she has a HUGE prey drive and if something is moving, she goes after it. I've never really liked the terrier personality, and it seems like I've somehow managed to find a cavalier who shows that exat type of behavior in spades. She has never aggressively bitten any of us when we pick her up, or take something from her, etc. It's just that she "plays" extremely violently, and we can't seem to get her out of that behavior.

I'm kind of depressed right now, partially because in addition to all the biting (as if that's not bad enough), she's had 2 pee accidents this evening on the carpet, one right in front of me. No one could have been more religious in taking a dog out over and over and over than we have been this last 2 weeks (that's how long we've had her). I probably take her outside 10-12 times a day, maybe more (that's just during the day, she does pretty well at night, only waking us up to take her out once at the most). I follow all the advice in terms of taking her out after she eats, drinks, plays, sleeps, etc. She always goes potty when I take her out, usually multiple times. I'll bring her inside thinking she's completely empty, and she'll turn around and pee in the floor 15 minutes later. I feel like crying.

My 5 year old daughter (who adores dogs and has dreamed about nothing but getting a dog for the last year) said this morning "Why can't we just get rid of her? It was so calm before we had her!" I've explained her biting and scratching away as being puppy play so many times that I feel like my kids think I'm always siding with her over them. I have to physically detach her teeth from their clothes about 10 times a day, minimum, not to mention my own.

Someone, help me see the good dog at the end of this puppy period, please! I keep telling the kids and my husband that this is the hard part, and that she will get better, but there are times I doubt it myself. I used to love puppies, and I had every confidence that I knew the right way to raise a puppy to be a good family member, but right now, I wish we had gotten an adult dog (or none at all). Honestly, if I could send her off to puppy detention center right now, and have her come back reformed, I probably would.

Sorry to be the only downer in all these positive posts about how great our dogs are, but I needed to vent and ask for support!!!!

Hi DeAnna,
How old is your puppy?

Hi DeAnna,
How old is your puppy?

She is 12 weeks old. We got her at 10 weeks.

Deanna, It just doesn't sound like this puppy is fitting with your family. You and your children seem traumatized by this experience. Instead of it being a time of wonder and fun, it is a time of anxiety. Would the breeder consider taking this puppy back?

Because she is a good breeder, she does have a policy that if you ever have to give up the dog, she will always take her. I think about that at least once a day, I have to admit. It's just so unreal that I would even entertain that thought, given how much I love dogs and that I grew up with dogs, and how long I've anticipated and prepared for this time -- all the books and websites I read about how to introduce a puppy to the family, etc., explaining to the kids how they need to treat her, respect her, etc.

But you're right, she is definitely causing very high anxiety levels in all of our family right now, especially me because I was the driving force behind getting her so I have guilt on top of worry. I'm going to try not to lay awake tonight thinking about it. Maybe tomorrow will be better...

When she is sweet, she is very, very sweet, but the other times are getting tougher to take. If the ratio of sweet to crazed would just get a little more favorable, I know I'd make it through.

Hi Deanna,
It sounds like maybe there is too much activity going on around your pup. She may be getting too aroused by sounds and quick movements. Could that be a factor? How old are your children?

My daughter will be 6 in about 3 weeks, and my son is almost 8.

I don't let them get wild with her around, honestly. All it takes to provoke her play attacks is for someone to walk through the room in white socks, or for my daughter to walk by in her ankle-length nightgown -- she will literally launch herself through the air and attach herself to the hem of her nightgown and I have to pry her teeth off of it. She also hangs off our pantlegs as we walk. I feel like I'm correcting her 100 times a day by pushing her away and saying Off. Eventually I get so sick of it that I put her in her crate to keep my sanity and to prevent my daughter from being attacked. I've never been one to yell at or swat a dog, but I'm beginning to wonder if it needs to come to that to get her attention. I have started yelling No or Off at her and clapping my hands. Sometimes that will distract her long enough to let go for a second before she makes another lunge.

I play fetch with her a lot and she's very good at it. She'll even eventually release the toy to me on her own when I say Drop it in a low voice and look her in the eye. I've also taught her to sit and lie down very well and we are working on rollover. She always sits for treats really well. I think she is very smart. We try to play with her a lot to work off energy (and because playing with a puppy is fun, of course), but we don't do walks yet because she's only had 2 of her 3 puppy shots and I don't want to take any chances. Plus, she's not good on a leash yet at all.

I'm probably exaggerating somewhat when I say she is biting at us 90% of the time. Right now, I'm kind of depressed (as you can tell), so I'm probably focusing on the negative. She's an angel sometimes. She will chew on her nylabones for quite a while a couple of times a day, and when she first wakes up, she is very calm and loves her belly rubbed. We all love to hold her and pet her when she is in a calm mood, and during those times, I feel like she's worth any amount of trouble. The kids love her then, too. We love to pet her and cuddle with her, but those sessions are just very brief and few and far between, compared to the times when we are fending her off. I don't mind being mouthed by a puppy, but I'm getting awfully tired of being bitten, and I certainly didn't bargain for her lunging at the kids repeatedly. She bit my daughter on the jaw the other day and left a mark. Is this normal cavalier puppy behavior? Did I just have unrealistic expectations?

I know how much work puppies are - we had two at once, but there were just us two adults. We took them to puppy training, which you might want to consider. If it's a puppy class everyone will all be having the same problems, so the trainer may spend a lot of class time addressing these problems.

You will learn different ways of responding to your pup that focus on positive reinforcement. If you reward your puppy's 'good' behaviors and ignore or redirect 'bad' behaviors, you may see her good behaviors increase and the others will decrease. She wants your attention after all, so she will do whatever it takes to get it. You could reward her by feeding her pieces of her food during the day instead of giving it all to her in her bowl (be prepared for a little extra pooping though.)

We learned that pushing a puppy away is perceived as attention to the pup. So by pushing you are reinforcing the behavior you want to extinguish.

(I'm going to submit this and start a new post.)

Our puppies did bite a little hard a few times, but we had already been trained to say "Ouch!" and then walk away and ignore the pup. This is what a littermate would do - squeal in pain and stop playing. You should not pull your hand (or whatever) the puppy is biting. Just say ouch like a squeal to let her know it hurt (even if its just your pant leg) and then ignore her for a few minutes so she learns that she cannot bite if she wants your attention.

Since she's hurting the kids, I would always supervise their time together!! Maybe could she go in an x-pen or a room with baby gates that is off limits to the children when you cannot supervise?

DeAnna it kinda sounds like she is in a big teething stage...I'm not sure if u've read some of my post but i work in a pet store (who sells pups)...I've seen pups that are in such a great deal on pain cuz of their adult teeth...Have u tried any chewing deterents like Bitter Apple..that's our best chewing deterent that we sell....u can use it on ur cloths (just color test first) even on ur hands and feet...some dogs are immune to the taste but it usually works on puppies...

I wouldn't give her up if I were u...well I can't really say that cuz my kid was never a aggressive chewer when he was a pup...just an average chewer...

Can u hold her with her lying on her back...cradled like a baby?? usually they say if the dog legs u then the pup is submissive... King, my kid, is very submissive but every ckcs is different... Just don't let this stage get u discouraged on keeping her...

I really hope it works out wit ur lil baby just keep letting ur kids play wit her when she calm... Also one other thing i just thought of which some ppl don't think is very nice towards the pup (but one of our local breeders usually suggests this for the bigger pups) is if she bites ur hand put ur thumb in her mouth and press on her tongue..they dont like it and as ur doin this say "NO BITE!!!!" sometimes this works but it wouldn't hurt to give this a shot... Good luck with her

Yes, we can hold her on her back, and she will even go to sleep that way in our arms. We can also hold her (under her front legs) in front of us at arm's length and she will just stare at us and wag her tail. So I really don't think it's dominance or aggression. I think she is basically very sweet and submissive, but she's clueless about how to play in any other way than to bite (hard). I think she played very rough with her littermates and for whatever reason, she never learned signals about when enough is enough. I think she is somewhat of a "hard" puppy who is fairly impervious to correction, and that I am a very "soft" person who is timid at correcting her because I don't want to be unkind. I've always been accused of being too soft-hearted -- maybe they are right in this case!

Thanks for your advice -- we will keep working on it. Maybe we will eventually find the "magic" technique that will work with her. In my darkest moments, I do envision giving her back to the breeder, but I've never given up on anything as important as this, and I can't see myself doing that. I'm not saying it won't come to that, but I guess I'm not to that point yet.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Our puppy trainer had a talk with the class about yelling at our dogs. She said her dog can be in another room of the house and hear her in the kitchen opening a food wrapper. With hearing that good, no yelling is needed! Just teach them the word 'no' and you won't have to raise your voice.

deanna--from what you say, it sounds like your puppy is smart and very capable of learning acceptable behavior and being socialized. what is the puppy's name?

how frustrating it is for you to have tried to correct her and she is not getting it. maybe some of the suggestions in this thread will help. Or maybe there are less 'softhearted' corrections that would make a difference (i am not talking about abusing the dog but about getting her attention and conveying your seriousness). I've had some luck with using time out. but your situation has a real urgency about it. i would think if your small child was bitten on the jaw and it left a mark, something needs to be done immediately--because it's not a one time accident but a foreseeable injury, given the degree and intensity of biting you're talking about. From what you say, it doesn't sound like the puppy is abnormal--in a home with one adult, no kids, an adult who enjoys rough play with the puppy, the same behavior might not be a problem, or in a home where the guardian uses corrections that intimidate the dog, the behavior might be curbed. i'm not advocating that, but just saying that the problem isn't with the dog or with the family, but with the match between them.

it's no wonder you're depressed. I definitely agree with the suggestion that you start a puppy training class as soon as she has her last shots, one that is compatible with your values and softheartedness, and in the meantime, invest in one or two sessions of having a trainer come to your home and work with you and the puppy on this behavior. You've paid so much money for the dog--hopefully you can afford some more to get help with this problem. On the one hand, it doesn't really sound like a big problem, if you can just learn a way of communicating limits to the pup that she will take seriously. On the other hand, it's a big problem because of the level of stress and unhappiness it's causing and your report that your daughter has been bitten in the face, and is too young to protect herself from this, in a situation where such things are bound to happen because the puppy doesn't yet understand what is expected and required, and i don't think the puppy will outgrow this behavior, not in the short run anyway, without some change in how it's being managed.

About peeing on the floor, i think she is too young to get the indoor outdoor concept yet. That is a gradual process, and can take up until the dog is 6 months old or so--even when they learn to only go outside, suddenly one day, they'll do it on the rug again after they've seemed to have mastered it. I guess it takes time to get the distinction between in and out. This certainly happened with Zack. He was able to go in and out multiple times throughout the day, and soon seemed to get the pattern of going outside and not inside, but then occasionally he would still go inside, quite disheartening. but i think your puppy is way too young to get it yet. no matter how many times you take her out, she still doesn't know that inside is not for peeing, and developmentally, this normally takes longer than 12 weeks, often a lot longer.

it sounds like if it wasn't for the biting behavior, the peeing behavior would not be as upsetting.

it hasn't been that long since you got your pup from the breeder, i would think you could get a refund if you decide to go that way. You can certainly get a different puppy who doesn't play as rough. Dogs do vary on things like that, and it doesn't mean the dog has an abnormality, but just that the match between dog and family isn't working. I think the breeder should give a refund, if it can't be worked out, or should come up with some solution, does she have another puppy? probably not, from what you've said.

i know this situation is really depressing, but one way or another, i know you'll find a way through the dilemmas. I think your best bet is to quickly find a trainer you can communicate with and have at least one or two sessions in the home, and also start a class after she has her last shot. In the meantime, is there a way of keeping the puppy separated from the kids except when you are able to protect them? you are describing an inability to have an effect on the biting behavior, due to softheartedness or whatever, but the kids urgently need protection, as you know, whatever it takes.

you mentioned sending her to boot camp--there are such residential training programs. They're expensive but i know of several. you can send the dog off for a few weeks and the dog is trained by professionals. but for the good socialization to continue, the management has to continue at home when the dog returns. but i think you can solve this problem in a less extreme way. I hope so. good luck! I hope you can find some good help.

Hi ,
My first cavalier Ruby was a real chewer too except that she preferred our toes to bite than anything else and those teeth are sharp . She did grow out of it . Its worth putting up with a little pain now for all the joy your puppy will bring you . Just continue with ouch and no and ignore puppy when the chewing happens and make sure you have a chew toy to offer instead .
Good luck.
Mimi

Hi i feel for you right now i really do as i have been through the exact same experience. All i can say to you from my own experience is it really will get better. I too was depressed with the biteing etc and the same as you i did a lot of research into buying a puppy and came up with the cavalier because all the websites kept going on about their excellent temprement. To be honest i think what you are experiencing is perfectly normal. I think a lot of people maybe forget what their puppies were like. My Joey is 11 months now and is the perfectly behaved little guy i had always longed for. They do go through a teething age like babies where they just want to chew on everything to numb the pain a little. I would say that by the age of about 5 or 6 months it will completely stop if you can persevere with that. I think you were just looking for a bit of reassurance and that is what i am trying to give. Honestly this time in a few months you will be enjoying the little puppy you always dreamed of. I just wanted to reply to your post because i can remember so clearly how i felt at that time thinking i just had a bad dog and now my boy is a little angel who my whole family love. It really is just a stage. I hope this gives you a little hope. :flwr:

This is pretty normal puppy (or kitten, actually) behaviour and the best way to manage it is to first and foremost, eliminate the possibilities for this behaviour in the first place. This is because if the puppy doesn't have the opportunity to be triggered by certain things and then learn this behaviour, the problem is stopped before it starts. Also you don't want to keep scolding and reprimanding a puppy, which isn't good for the puppy or for you (and indeed may increase anxiety levels in the pup, making her even more nippy and overstimulated). A reprimand loses all power if it is constant (as in scolding a child all the time -- soon the scolding has no meaning). That's another reason to totally remove the stimuli that cause the problems.

These stimuli seem to be certain ways in which the family, especially the kids, interact with the puppy, and certain types of clothing, and how the puppy herself is managed during these encounters. All these problems are common but let's try to eliminate them from the start.

I do think the main problem is simply overstimulation because of the activity of small kids, and not least because you don't have the same problem when others come over. A 12 week pup is also very young and very small to be running around on the floor with young kids unless the interactions are all very closely supervised -- for just the reasons you are finding. Puppies can nip and nip hard and this can hurt children; likewise children can accidentally harm a puppy that is as small as a cavalier.

Cathy's advice is very good -- if you don;t have an x-pen, buy one. Then put the puppy in an X-pen when the children are there so the puppy has its space and the kids have theirs but they can visually interact and enjoy each other safely (a puppy this small needs confining anyway for effective housetraining and should only be brought out for *brief*, controlled interactions with kids, just as you wouldn't leave small kids alone with a human baby). ALL interactions with the puppy should be with the children sitting on the floor, not getting up and moving about, also that the environment is calm, and chew toys for refocuisng biting behaviour should be right there. If the kids are ready to do something else and get up, then the puppy goes back into the X-pen. Put a crate in the X-pen so that the puppy always has somewhere sheltered and quiet to go and the kids should never be allowed to take the puppy out of that 'safe zone' -- this will help the puppy know where to go if she needs to chill out. If she feels overexposed this too is probably causing overexcited nipping.

Another issue is the socks and nightgowns hems -- if these are problems, then don't have the puppy loose when people are wearing things that trigger unwanted behaviour (remember this is only going to be for a while, not forever! But kids will need to wear the right clothes for 'puppy time'). When the puppy is out, kids need to be in shoes. No pajamas and loose garments; no clothes that might serve as something to encourage chasing and biting.

If she is hanging off pantlegs then again -- let's not allow this to happen (or to look at it a different way -- why is she in a situation where she is able to do this?). If this type of behaviour happens, don't scold, shout, slap (especially!) -- simply pick her up and put her in the x-pen and leave her with everyone ignoring her for 10 minutes (remember if interactions are now done when people are seated on the floor, cross legged, this isn't going to happen anymore anyway). Same if she nips or grabs anything that you don't want -- calmly into the pen she goes and is left there for 10 minutes. Exile is far worse for a puppy than shouting (and indeed some puppies and dogs will prefer to get *negative* reactions -- as it is still attention -- than no attention. You will know that human kids do the exact same -- 'asking for it' even though they know their behaviour will see them sent to their room or reprimended. The attention form the parent is better than no attention.

See if these techniques don't help, and look for some toys to help with teething. A good one is an old washcloth soaked and then twisted to squeeze out excess water, than freeze it while it it tightly rolled. The cold is very soothing for pups.

On a more general and serious note: puppies do not suit every family and can be especially difficult with small kids around. For that reason I often recommend an older dog, as it is much, much easier to integrate in for many people. The idea of a puppy is often a lot more attractive than the reality and I fit into that slot -- puppies are darling but it was HARD having Jaspar for the first few months and I don't know if I would ever want to go through having a puppy again, as tempting as they look from time to time (I also far prefer adult cats to kittens). And I live on my own and don't have kids as well to manage! Also some puppies can be more active than others and more in your face (just as people can). For this reason you might indeed want to consider changing puppies to a quieter personality or even waiting to get an older dog or older pup (6 month or older) from the breeder; please sit down and consider those alternatives too because you shouldn't be so stressed out over a puppy that you aren't enjoying this addition to your family and no two families (or individuals) are the same when it comes to what is right for them. Keep in mind that you will have many more months of training and work with a puppy ahead of you and consider whether that fits with what you want right now. Incidentally, did your breeder ever do a personality assessment on her litter to match them with families? Many do this and it tends to greatly increase the chance of success. It sounds like perhaps you really needed a calm, quieter puppy for your family and instead have an extremely outgoing puppy which is a bit overwhelming (and her personality overall is unlikely to change, though the nipping will indeed stop). For this reason, if this is not the personality you want, you talk to your breeder about options. I would recommend this ANYWAY -- a good breeder is the best source of advice for the problems you are having and she should be able to give guidance and full backup and reassurance, whatever you decide to do.

A final note -- please try to forget about old fashioned and outdated notions of dominance and submission as these can be VERY simplistic as they are applied to dogs by humans in books, TV shows, videos or advice from boards :lol: -- and can cause very serious problems in dogs because we often have it entirely wrong. They aren't relevant here anyway -- a puppy of 12 weeks is not showing dominance behaviour to you, just puppy play and testing out what it is able to do, just as human babies mouth everything. Dogs won't be showing dominance ofthe kind that matters to them and very occasionally, to us, until they start to reach sexual maturity months from now, and overall, even then this behaviour is widely misunderstood and misinterpreted and is really best left to qualified behaviouralists to interpret. Please don't try techniques that are supposed to subdue puppies, such as rolling and pinning them on to their backs (alpha rolls), holding out at arms length and shouting, scruff shakes -- these are all very risky behaviours to try on puppies and terrifying to them too. In general, adog that runs the house is almost never 'dominant' in the way some simplistic training methods claim -- it just has never been taught polite behaviour or enough polite behaviour.

more info:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2286

The best approach is simply to control behaviour calmly and kindly and not allow it to happen in the first place. As with children, setting a dog up for success -- eg put a puppy or adult dog into situations where they have little chance of the wrong behaviour and every chance of the right behaviour -- is what cements the good behaviour to start with, and confidence, and your good relationship, and training classes can later, help build on that.

Hi DeAnna,

I've read right through this thread and really feel for you at the moment as you are obviously upset and stressed. - This is also going to affect the way the puppy behaves. I think that you've been given some excellent advice and Karlin has just given you the very same advice as I was going to give.

I think an X-Pen or kiddies playpen is the best way to go here and calm playtime, coupled with 'time out' sounds like just what she needs.

She is only a baby herself and remember that everything in her life has changed dramatically in the last two weeks - she's gone from having other pups to play rough with, to being in a home where there are two small children (that she probably views as puppy type playmates) who get upset when she's only doing what comes naturally.

I think in this case that I would most definitely also get back in touch with the breeder - he or she might be able to give you some helpful advice too.

Tbh, any problems I ever had with Maxx, I was straight on the phone back to the breeder. A good breeder will appreciate this and after all, they know that pup better than anyone after helping bring it into the world and helping to nurture it for the first weeks of its life.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. X

Hi

We don't have our Cavalier yet, but we trained a yellow lab when my girls were 7 and 4. We also went through the biting stage and the kids would cry.

Here are a few things we did to eliminate the problem:
First, we used biter spray on the kids hands. This did seem to deter the biting. It also gave the kids a little confidence.

We backed up to supervised play. Which means that every one had old shirts, shoes and sat indian style to play. When we couldn't watch everyone together, especially after bath time, Riley went into her crate. We didn't have an x-pen at the time.

After 9pm, when the kids were in bed. The puppy got more one on one time with myself and hubby. To this day, she brings toys to me at 9pm! lol

Don't give up on her. It sounds like she is very smart and trainable. I think she needs more time in an x-pen. Especially, until she is housebroken too.

Good Luck and keep us posted on how it is going!