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Thread: Where did they come from

  1. #11
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    Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippa
    Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names.
    The names on the pedigree are suppose to tell "who" bred the dog. That is the who point of having a kennel name. I have a Homerbrent Erica-- that tells the world that M. Coaker bred her. I believe the point of not mentioning names was because people could say negative things and this being a moderated list especially--- legal issues could insue. Sandy

  3. #13
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    Sandy is right -- my issue is only with having any discussion turn into personal comments about breeders, asking for recommendations, offering warnings etc in posts regarding any named breeder or kennel line. I don't mind if people offer the critical comments behind the scenes (eg thru PMs or emails). But not here.

    The kennel (pedigree) names reveal the breeder, as Sandy notes. Dogs that don't have kennel prefixes or affixes tend to be the ones to worry about in a pedigree as they typically will indicate backyard breeders (non show breeders who nonetheless have been able to get proper kennel club registration -- which isn't that hard to get if you get your dogs from a registered line). That is why you can NEVER rely simply of the correct (as opposed to bogus) registries as an indication of a quality breeder or line -- though use of the bogus registries ALWAYS indictaes a backyard breeder or puppy mill! More on bogus registries: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=216

    This is one way of decoding a breeder website, as to whether they are breeding properly or not. Another way is to run the supposed kennel name prefix or the parent dogs through the online pedigree databases. If not a single dog with that prefix shows up, you are almost certainly again dealing with a BYB. Online databases: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=232

    Ronnoc is an Irish not English kennel; Jaspar is a Ronnoc dog. Ronnoc dogs are behind many of the Homerbrent, Homeranne and Salador dogs -- they had a very famous stud named Ronnoc True Luck who fathered many puppies, including one all-champion Salador litter.

    As an example of the above, try running Ronnoc, Salador or Homerbrent through the online databases and you'll see lots of dogs come up.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #14
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    Thanks for that Sandy. Should have known that I actually had known that some names link to breeders but didn't realise thay all do.


    Karlin just started this to see if any relatives of my two were on board for a bit of interest for myself,hope I didn't offend or overstep the bounderies by asking!

    By the way I did know Ronnoc was Irish Gus's mummy was a Ronnoc but I read a book on cavs written by an english author and she mentioned most of the others were english.

  5. #15
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    Those pedigree sites are really neat! I just checked some of Chester's relatives on the http://www.cavaliersonline.com site and I couldn't find any info on his parents but his grandparents are in there and there's ton of info on them and several generations back.

    Chester's grandfather is an Irish Blenheim named Ch Dark Boyo and here's the page showing the details and his relatives: http://www.cavaliersonline.com/cgi-b...=cavaliers.dbw

    There's even a Homerbrent relative back in the 1970's...how cool!
    "My little dog: A heartbeat at my feet."
    ~Edith Wharton

  6. #16
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    Default pedigree

    mollys =sire=nakalas dynamite dylon,grandsire =mareve indiana,grand dam =lady chantilly lace ----- dam=magic molly,--grand sire= nakalas dynamite dylon,---grand dam=lucky liah breeder =debbie mackenzie
    christine and cavaliers molly+charlie

  7. #17
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    Default registration

    ive just been looking at mollys registration paper and it says the dog lovers registration club uk ltd are there different types as ive seen the green paper for the kennel club and mine is blue,charlie dosent have any papers.....
    christine and cavaliers molly+charlie

  8. #18
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    Isabella's parents- Lady + the Tramp
    Abby's parents- Amber + the Tramp

  9. #19
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    Ronnoc is Connor backward, BTW -- a lot of breeders run their name in reverse in the UK and Ireland. Another famous old Irish kennel was Tnegun -- Nugent backwards.

    Pretty much every cavalier will eventually go back to champions and some of the well known English dogs and lines in particular, simply because they are all descended from only 6 or 7 dogs and the breed wasn't really introduced to any degree in the US until the 60s, and then mostly from an initial small range of imported English dogs, according to breed histories.

    This is why the gene pool is so narrow, and also why breeding is so tricky with this breed -- because already close relatives were bred together just to develop the breed, that means the potential for genetic negatives in the breed started early on. Many cavaliers continue to be very closely line bred (eg to related dogs, with many of the same dogs appearing in the same line of one dog, and often on both dam and sire sides). The degree of relatedness in a dog -- how many of its ancestors are closely related genetically -- is called a breeding coefficient. The higher the breeding coefficient, the closer the line breeding and the higher the concentration of similar genes and to many minds, the more at risk a cavalier is of having genetic problems show. I think the recommendation is for the breeding coefficient not to be higher than around 20%. Many cavaliers are above 40% . Many breeders try to lower the breeding coefficient of their dogs by outcrossing to other lines or more distant lineages, so that the same dog isn't in the recent generations of a pedigree for example. In Sweden I believe the national CKCS club forbids close line breeding, eg of siblings or of parents and offspring. Here's more info on breeding coefficients and a link to a pedigree database that also gives coefficients for each dog, if enough information is available:

    http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=233

    At the same time, line breeding helps develop a distinct line for a breeder and a skilled breeder knows how best try to carefully select for good qualities while limiting the negative genetic effect this might have. So there's nothing intrinsically wrong with line breeding, but you need to know what you are doing.

    All of this is also one of the things to watch for with puppy farm and BYB dogs. What you want are dogs from good lines in the parentage and granparents. Further back, it's not necessarily indicating anything as nearly any backyard-bred cavalier will start to hit well known lines and champions in the great grandparents or further back. Hence in the US, BYBs and brokers for BYB or puppy farm dogs typically claim their dogs are "descended from champion stock" or "descended from imported English/Irish dogs". No reputable breeder makes such claims because the claims are so meaningless.

    A reputable breeder will point you to the recent generations, as proof of a strong and thoughtful breeding programme. They will be proud of all the generations but they will not try to claim champions back in the mists of time.

    After I got my two boys from a reputable breeder I read far more and learnbed far more than I did the first time out. Now, I would be not only looking for the health clearances and the MRI status (for syringomyelia) for the dam and sire, but I'd also be interested in knowing breeding coefficients and looking for low coeficients, and would like to see really good, longlived quality dogs in close generations rather than with lots of intervening generations.

    I'd also be looking for skull shapes that might not be considered 'winning' head shapes right now but which I, along with some researchers and breeders, think give a dog a much better chance of not having SM and having plenty of room for its brain. There's no scientific proof for this but I have seen some striking MRIs for affected and clear dogs.

    I've been crazy for cavaliers for three years now and have seen many dogs from many lines -- and I still would not be able to pick out a really superb breed example. The fact that I couldn't do this -- though it is pretty easy to spot the poor breed examples-- and the difficulty of getting my poor head around how breeding coefficients and genetics work underlines to me the time and effort it takes to get to know the breed well enough to even consider breeding (as Bruce has pointed out, generally you want to be mentored for a couple of years before feeling ready to breed and then only with the help of a mentor). It's also why I really admire the good breeders who are so committed to geting the best possible mix of health, conformation and temperament.

    On the flip side, running Irish Cavalier rescue means I see a LOT of BYB and puppy farm cavaliers as those are the majority that come in, regardless of whether they have their IKC papers (I cannot stress enough how little a good registration means outside of indicating that at least you have a better chance of having found a good breeder -- it just takes a lot of research and legwork to find a good breeder with the proper registration being the most basic starting point). Every dog is of course to be cherished, and I am not talking about any dog being 'better' than another simply because of a pedigree, but what I hope is that people will learn where to spend their money if they are buying a cavalier, and how to avoid the scammers.

    I am working on a post for the library that will walk through all these kinds of things -- to help people figure out whether the things any given breeder is saying actually mean anything and to better spot the good ones.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #20
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    When I was going for a cavalier I contacted the secretery of the irish CKCS club, she lives close to me and we attend the same vet.She put me in touch with someone from the club who deals with the breeders and that lady put me in touch with Gus's breeder.

    I contacted that breeder again when I decided to get another cav but I think she has retired from breeding now.


    Friends of mine have got cavaliers recently and from what I can gather seem to have gotton them from a BY breeder,Their colouring is not great and after she got her dog her mum decided to get one and then another member of her familygot one and has recently got another one and now has two. Seems to me no matter how often they call this breeder he has dogs ready

    Her dog is very small and thin doesn't eat well and is extremely nervous with people and from what she tells me the other dogs are much the same. I think this is very worrying

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