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Thread: Where did they come from

  1. #21
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    Default breeder

    when i went to get molly the breeder had the pups in the kitchen but in the garden she had about 12 cavaliers,cages of show cats and other dogs and the house was small ,molly has always been small but never nervous i wouldnt go to her again..
    christine and cavaliers molly+charlie

  2. #22
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    I went to cavaliersonline and couldn't find either the sire or dam of my dog. I have their AKC registration numbers and their names. The Dam is Szikasdombi Roulet Reg # TR41717601, then it has (06-06) HUN and the Sire is Happy Pappy Reg #TP29450008 (06-04)

    The dam is in Yuba City, CA, and the sire was via artificial insemination.

    Can someone help me find more info about this?
    Incredibly proud mom to Toby, my baby, and the amazing 8 year old Max who has found his forever home.

  3. #23
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    For the most part, don't most breeders begin as BY breeders? I have read the stories of some of the very large Champion breeding kennels, and most of them began with a couple of dogs.

    The breeder from whom I got toby had about 2 males and females, yet she chose to breed via AI, wouldn't that indicate that she was going for a more distant match? Thus, more remote DNA and healthier dogs?
    Incredibly proud mom to Toby, my baby, and the amazing 8 year old Max who has found his forever home.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldcountryrose
    For the most part, don't most breeders begin as BY breeders? I have read the stories of some of the very large Champion breeding kennels, and most of them began with a couple of dogs.
    Absolutely not. A backyard breeder is one who does not heart test their dogs, does not wait until their bitch has been heart clear for minimum 2 years before breeding and basically indiscriminately breeds. A reputable breeder does not buy two dogs and start breeding. Normally they will have a mentor who will guide them through breeding. They will attend shows, become educated about Cavalier health, become familiar with the whole Cavalier world...and then decide to breed. They are careful about their breeding stock. Many breeders will tell you about how they became involved in Cavaliers and spent a couple of years educating themselves about Cavaliers before beginning to breed.
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  5. #25
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    Reputable breeders rarely begin as backyard breeders. I know of only one or two who, through spending time on the discussions boards and lists like this, have realised the way they are breeding is the wrong way, and that every litter they produce does nothing to benefit either the individual puppies or the breed.

    Anyone who cares about dogs will understand very quickly, once they begin to research breeds and breeding and the genetic issues one encounters with purebreds, that one will need to serve some sort of apprenticeship before getting involved on a professional level with breeding dogs. And by that I do not mean an apprenticeship with a breeder/mentor, though it is very difficult to learn anything without one -- but serve a responsible apprenticeship to a breed one will know little about. That means doing your very best by the breed by slowly acquiring knowledge, reading books, going to shows, studying the sites of good breeders, talking to good breeders, attending health and information seminars thru the clubs, joining the breeder lists and learning, learning to understand the complexities of breeding and genetics and the precise health issues and their inheritability of your chosen breed...

    A backyard breeder by very definition is a person who does not care about learning any of this as they have not bothered to think beyond setting up a whelping box and a website. A BYB thinks only about deriving money and perhaps some personal pleasure from breeding and having cute puppies around the house. But how can anyone derive pleasure from knowingly producing dogs without any care about their future beyond pocketing money from them and the fun you might get preparing them for a new home? That is the purely selfish side of breeding, and is cruel towards the very breed one is supposed to be so dedicated to.

    I cannot stress enough that a breeder should be asked for the pedigree of the sire and dam before anyone even considers a puppy, for at least three and preferably five generations. The breeder should be happy to tak about the history of his or her lines, explain their breeding programme, show you all the formal health clearances, probably have dogs listed on the OFA site to verify the health testing and so you can check the AGE (a cardiac clearance at age 1 means nothing; a cardiac clearance at age 2, 3, 4 also means nothing unless the grandparents on both sides also had clear hearts at age 5). Then go do your research -- what is the background of sire and dam? Do the parents or grandparents appear in the online databases or at the very least, the kennel name? If only the grandparents, greatgrandparents, or further back ancestors do, then that should raise some immediate red flags about the breeder. Does the breeder show? If not, another red flag.

    If I had a dog where I was only given the name of sire and dam and nothing else, I'd be back to that breeder to ask for full and proper pedigrees. I'd want to know why the kennel names for the parents aren't listed. I'd want to know if they list their health tested dog's results on OFA and if not, why not. I'd want to see the actual pieces of paper with the clearances so I'd know they were actually done. I'd want to know at what age the dire and dam were when bred.

    If none of this could be produced to my satisfaction, I'd realise this is a breeder to avoid in future, and chalk this up to experience -- one that many, many have in buying their first dog as there are far more unethical than ethical breeders out there. There are reasons why a perfectly decent dog might not appear in the databases but it is always an exception and I'd want to know why. Also I'd be googling to see who else has such dogs, and if it is other breeders, I'd be chekcing out their sites to see if the original kennel looks like one that is seelling dogs on full registration to BYBs -- importing foreign dogs that can avail of dual registration is one way BYBs get full AKC registration for trash breeding programmes.

    In rescue I deal with the product of BYBs and puppy farms all the time. Dogs way too big or too small, that don't look like proper cavaliers, muzzles way too long, that have early onset heart murmurs, that have temperament problems, that are way too stocky or sway backed, that will lead short, compromised lives because someone thought it would be nice to have one or maybe two litters from their own dog to 'get back what they paid for her'.

    The fact that this discussion has veered towards having to reiterate that backyard breeding is at all times indefensible, underlines why I am wary of any topic that brings up discussions of breeding, even when they start in as innocuous a subject as the pedigrees of one's own dogs.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  6. #26
    Mic Guest

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    Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Karlin. I'm glad you participated in this discussion because I learned a lot from it.

    How can I find out anything about a kennel in the UK?

    Mickey

    Edited to remove the kennel name so I don't get in trouble.

  7. #27
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    You can google them, try the online databases, or ask someone familiar with the UK kennels. Some kennels that have been around for a while are in the breed history books too. If someone knowns the name they can also PM or email you for further offline discussion.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  8. #28
    Mic Guest

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    Thanks for the tips, Karlin. I tried searching via google and got zero results. Same with the online database search you listed in the FAQ forum. Hmmm...not good. When I search by the breeder's name, I get a bit of info, but not pertaining to her CKCS program. Oh well.
    Mickey

  9. #29
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    Karlin, I just don't know what to say. Clearly your heart is true and your knowledge is beyond reproach. I really hope this doesn't make you mad, but I have to understand.

    Are you saying that if I chose to buy a dam and a sire, and paid about 6k for them, and I had made sure that their DNA was far removed, did heart checks, and everything else I could do...If I got a litter, then I am just a backyard breeder? I am sensing an ackward standard.

    So far, no one has answered my basic question, why would the breeder of my dog choose AI when she had 2 perfectly able males an 2 perfectly able females? Why did she keep my dog and his brother 7 months? She said it was because she thought my dog was going to be a perfect show dog, but then the underbite showed up as he grew older.

    She has the mother of my dog and saw her. She has a male who is too big to breed, he is about 25 lbs, so she didn't breed him. She had me sign a contract that I would neuter my dog, and on the AKC registration form, she blacked out the space she should have to indicate that my dog cannot be bred or shown. Does that sound irresponsible to you?

    I have the love of my life, and I got him for 600 dollars because of his defect. I could not love him more. And he is as healthy as a horse.

    When I send in his AKC registration, I will get his pedigree, with prior generations.

    I'm not refuting anything you say, but it does sound like you are saying that my dog, since he came from loving people who arent in some registry, is doomed.

    But on this website, I read of dogs who become desperately ill and die and I don't hear that those dogs came from disreputable people.

    Karlin, I am just suggesting that tho some breeders only have a few dogs, that doesn't mean that they aren't paying attention.

    As to Puppy Mills, I find the whole concept disgusting.
    Incredibly proud mom to Toby, my baby, and the amazing 8 year old Max who has found his forever home.

  10. #30
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    Monty's parents are not of a wellknown line but they come from Sanikros, Saladors, Crissdigs, Hillyacres and Sunninghills, starting at the next generation.

    Izzy's father was Salador Comet and his mum, Huntsbank Sequin of Acewall, so he's mainly from Saladors, Ronnocs, Huntsbanks, Hillyacres and Toraylacs.

    Joly's parents go back to Lyndabelles, Huntsbanks, Homerbrents, Toraylacs, Hillyacres, and many other well known lines.

    Teddy's parents are Homerbrent Expression and Toraylac Felicity at Acewall, so he's more than half Homerbrent, with Toraylacs, Lorankas, and Milkeyns.
    Barbara, Monty, Joly and Teddy.

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