Yet another vacc question

[Lisa_T]

I'm getting my ruby baby on monday week- the same day she gets her final dose of puppy shots. All the problems and tragedies reported on this board of late have made me nervous; what's the likelihood that an otherwise healthy puppy will react badly to the shots (no probs with first lot) especially in conjunction with a new home? What's the worst that can happen?
Or am I just being paranoid?

[judy]

the way i am, i would postpone the shot for a week or so. I would rather not risk a vaccine reaction on the first day home. I'd want to get to know my puppy first so that i'd have an idea of what is normal. severe reactions are very unlikely but according to my vet, milder reactions are to be expected, such as injection site soreness, lethargy, fever, diarrhea, for a day or so. It's not serious reactions i'd be worried about. I just wouldn't want the puppy to even be going through a mild normal reaction on her first day. I would want the puppy to feel her best on the first days, a new home is a big deal and i would want to not add more stressors in addition to things like having to sleep alone for the first time, the loss of familiar comforts, things like that. I would want her to have her normal energy for such an adventure as a new home.

[Alison_Leighfield]

I wouldn't do it full stop. I would use a kinder way with nosodes.

How old is your puppy? what age was puppy when the first shots were given?

If you feel that you have to do the 2nd shots wait untill puppy has settled with you, a month or so, make sure that puppy is 100% well, no tummy upsets, colds etc, never vaccinate a sick dog/puppy, then please ask your vet to vaccinate away from the neck area....somewhere in the rear region please....do what ever you can to prevent any needle damage what so ever to the sensitive neck area especially with the high percentage of Cavaliers thought to have SM.

While you are at your vets find out if he knows anything about SM, educate him as you go, give him some information that you can print and take with you.

hope this all helps,

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

[Karlin]

I will differ here and say I'd have her complete the set of injections as she has already had her first set. I am a believer in vaccination (though on a three year, not annual schedule) and have seen too many rescue puppies die from distemper and other problems associated with not having vaccinations and encountering infection -- their chance of pulling through is very small and treatment easily will runs to the thousands in such cases. I have never had a cavalier yet have a single problem with vaccines. including puppies, outside some minor drowsiness, and I have vaccinated a lot of them for rescue. I would not a home a dog without making sure it is vaccinated though I always advise putting them on a three year schedule (in the case of a puppy, that would be three years AFTER the one year booster).

I do not believe the medical evidence to support the use of nosodes is adequate (if anyone can produce anything convincing, please do -- as far as I knbow not a single scientifically acceptable double-blind tests shows these work adequately) and titers (the way of testing if there is immunity) are definitely known to give sporadic results and cannot be considered reliable (for accurately measuring either vax or nosodes). If you have a dog that is in an urban area and exposed to lots of other dogs I would never, ever risk not vaccinating.

That's IMHO but it is a very firm IMHO. I know others differ on this but I'd need a lot more hard evidence that dogs are not put at risk thru not vaccinating to ever be convinced to use nosodes except in special circumstances (eg ummuno-compromised dogs or dogs living away from contact with other dogs on a regular basis).

To put it another way: there is very clear statistical evidence that the decision by many not to vaccinate children for measles, mumps and rubella is causing spikes in all these conditions which are increasing exponentially -- exactly as would be expected -- each year in the UK (where more remain unvaccinated than anywhere else). That creates an ever-growing risk for the general population and is a very serious health concern.

[amanda L]

Hi Lisa,

Karlin wrote:

I do not believe the medical evidence to support the use of nosodes is adequate (if anyone can produce anything convincing, please do -- as far as I knbow not a single scientifically acceptable double-blind tests shows these work adequately) and titers (the way of testing if there is immunity) are definitely known to give sporadic results and cannot be considered reliable (for accurately measuring either vax or nosodes). If you have a dog that is in an urban area and exposed to lots of other dogs I would never, ever risk not vaccinating.

That's IMHO but it is a very firm IMHO. I know others differ on this but I'd need a lot more hard evidence that dogs are not put at risk thru not vaccinating to ever be convinced to use nosodes except in special circumstances (eg ummuno-compromised dogs or dogs living away from contact with other dogs on a regular basis).

To put it another way: there is very clear statistical evidence that the decision by many not to vaccinate children for measles, mumps and rubella is causing spikes in all these conditions which are increasing exponentially -- exactly as would be expected -- each year in the UK (where more remain unvaccinated than anywhere else). That creates an ever-growing risk for the general population and is a very serious health concern.

As outlined by Karlin, there is no acceptable hard scientific evidence to support their use accurately and results have not proved reliable. I think I would too continue with the shots, particularily if there has been no adverse reaction to any previous ones. I would def. have a chat with your vet and tell him/her about your concerns, and then decide what you think is best.

[Alison_Leighfield]

Lisa,

You must do what you feel is best for your puppy, in no way would I want you to make your choice from my own opinions.
My concerns are mainly connected with SM and therefore are not general concerns for all dogs that get vaccinated.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

[luvzcavs]

This is such a hard decision to make and one I am struggling with myself largely due to all the conflicting info.
If you do decide to vaccinate I agree with Judy, delay the process a week or so and get to know your baby first, also giving them chance to adjust to their new environment first. This way you know what their normal behaviour is like so can better monitor for changes.
Best of luck.

[Lisa_T]

I think there's some confusion here; my question is not about vaccinating per se- the breeder is seeing to that (on 9th oct), since the pup;s already had her first shot with their vet. That will allow their vet to give the puppy a second once over, even though she's healthy and fit as a fiddle. I saw her myself the day after her first set- in my house- and she was a bundle of mischief then. The breeders are then going to run the puppy over to my house on the evening of the 9th. I don't expect any difficulties, really- the puppy has been in my house, and she's spend time with both Holly and I before. I'm just wondering what the chances are of a bad reaction when second shots are combined with new home; and, if the reaction is bad, what to do about it. I'd probably make an vet appointment for that first week anyway... TBH, I think I'm being paranoid.

[judy]

...I'm just wondering what the chances are of a bad reaction when second shots are combined with new home; and, if the reaction is bad, what to do about it. I'd probably make an vet appointment for that first week anyway... TBH, I think I'm being paranoid.

i think the chances are slim that there would be any but a minor reaction. minor reactions are common. i don't think a new home can cause a worse reaction. vaccinations stress the immune system. major life changes stress the immune system. nothing controversial about that. but the chances are there will be no serious problem and maybe no noticeable problem.

i remember when my daughter was little and got her vaccinations, they said to give her some baby liquid tylenol because she had a normal and predictable reaction of feverishness and injection site pain, and fussiness for a day.

Around the same time, when she was an infant, I got the rubella vaccination, and not right away, but days later, my lymph glands swelled up all over my body, especially in the groin, the size of large walnuts. my joints swelled up, i could not bend my knees, the swelling was visible.

At first i didn't associate it with the vaccine, i had had vaccinnations throughout my life and had never been aware of any reaction (though it's entirely possible that i may have had some transient reaction that i never associated with the vaccination, but nothing serious, at least not that i associated with the vaccination at the time).

The swollen lymph glands and joints didn't occur until quite a while after the shot. So, i became alarmed, thinking i had Hodgkins disease or something like that.

I dont' remember what put me on the trail of the vaccine, but i started reading about it in the PDR and the manufacturer reported that some rather sizable proportion of women have swollen lymph glands and arthritis following the vaccination, these symptoms would occur not immediately after but a week or so later. It was like a range of 15 to 30% of women who would get these symptoms, according to the manufacturer's research reported in the PDR.

I then called my doctor to ask about this. i was bothered that i hadn't been warned since according to the manufacturer, it's so common, but my doctor insisted the symptom could absolutely not be caused by the vaccination. So needless to say, it was not reported by him to the drug company for their records. If the incidence is greater than the drug company thinks, how will they find out? those symptoms lasted quite a while, only gradually going away.

It's a known problem in the veterinary field that vaccine reactions are underreported. It's unfortunate that there is a lack of informed consent about these matters.

If a puppy develops symptomatic colitis two weeks or a month after a vaccination, you can bet the vaccination is not going to be considered a possible contributing factor, and will never be reported as such. Yet such a conclusion is not based on scientific research. It's just a bias, an unfounded assumption that is treated as fact. No one knows whether vaccinations contribute to such things, but there is evidence strongly suggestive that it can be--it needs serious study. You have puppies with diarrhea and people trying one food after another, prescription diets, medications, pumpkin, etc etc, without resolution. But diagnoses are recorded, "food allergy," "stress," "worms," "parasites," without asking why would this puppy have a food allergy in the first place, if that's what it is. Why has the puppy's immune system not held the parasites in check? There's so much guess work, and it can be guided by common biases, not by science.

if in the unlikely event that your puppy has a severe reaction, of course you would take her to the vet or emergency as she would need something like epinephrine injection for breathing, but i'm sure you know that.

for me, it's not just the immediate reactions that are a worry. there is reason to be concerned about long term and chronic effects, and for me, this means being very cautious about not overvaccinating, not treating them casually, as if they are safe, as if there is no reason to be worried about them. they are a lesser of evils, and should not be done more than necessary. and what is necessary is not that clear, there needs to be more objective research into the subject.

anyway, good luck with your new baby and don't be paranoid .

[Lisa_T]

Thank you. When I take her to my own vet I'm going to make a list of question that never occurred to me first time re Holly. One of those questions will be for the vet to give me an opinion on a vaccination schedule; I like Karlin's suggestion of a 3-year booster schedule- in fact, Holly has never been vaccinated in precise yearly intervals (exceot the first booster)- I usually forget, and forget, and by the time I take her in it's usually around the 18 month mark, and I've never had problems. Then again, this was the dog that happily played on the beach (running after toys etc) only two or three days after being spayed She got tired faster than normal, but that was the only problem we noticed. Needless to add, I won't be doing that with BabyNo2!