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Thread: The Snip

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Santa Monica CA
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    in reading the discussion on indiscriminate breeding, including well intentioned but uninformed unmentored breeding, it's hard for me to imagine how this problem could be controlled as cavaliers become increasingly popular.

    Considering this, at least one thing that can be sure to help is for pet cavaliers to be neutered.

    Are there any organizations that are buying up irresponsibly bred puppies and then neutering them? Would that help? I know that obviously it would put money in the pockets of the irresponsible breeders, allowing them to continue what they are doing, so that doesn't sound feasible. Yet one would want to plug the flood of these dogs into the gene pool, should they be bred. I have a helpless feeling about it.

    I know that in many locations in the US today, there are certain interests (such as PETA) who are trying to pass mandatory neutering laws, and the laws that I've heard about are too general, they would make breeding dogs very difficult or impossible for all breeders, including responsible ones.

    It might help if there were laws that would make it illegal to breed dogs without passing stringent health-related criteria, as well as other criteria through which responsible breeders could justify their breeding, and distinguish themselves from people who are breeding simply for profit and purely as a business, as well as people who would breed just for personal reasons such as having an offspring of their dog.

    I don't know anything about existing legislative efforts or whether there are legislative possibilities that could help our breed.

    Does anyone know anything about this, or have ideas/opinions about what role if any mandatory legislation might play in restricting unhealthy inbreeding of cavaliers?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Sierra Nevada Foothills, CA
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    What a plethora of answers and information. My thanks to each and every one of you.

    Yes, my responsible breeder did make me sign a contract that Toby would be neutered, and she blacked out a space on the AKC forms that aslo indicated that he must never be bred.

    I am thrilled that I bought my baby for only $600.00. And now that I have him, he us utterly priceless. I would have had to wait a very long time to pay two thousand dollars for him. The prices I found when seeking a Cav were 2K for a female and a min of 1500 for a male.

    It is my understanding that my breeder kept Tobyand his brother because they appeared perfect for showing. As Toby grew older, his underbite became obvious. He is, in fact, perfect for showing if not for the underbite. He was 7 months old when I was blessed with finding him. His brother, who did not have the same birth defect, was sold for $1100.00, the cost also discounted because they were older. And, both dogs were sold, ultimately, because of an extremely serious health problem with their humans.

    He was created via artificial insimination, so I think that the breeder took health issues into consideration and went for the best.

    You all are going to really HATE this question, but, what about the Cav/Poodle thing? I am not, repeat, am not, going to do anything that is foolhearty or damaging to the breed. I am simply curious.

    I have friends who have a Labradoodle, or however you spell it, and that dog is totally adorable, and possibly on the way to becoming a recognized breed.

    Is there a chance that the cavoodle, or what ever you call it, could do the same? Or are they just breeding a totally sickly, and cursed animal?
    Incredibly proud mom to Toby, my baby, and the amazing 8 year old Max who has found his forever home.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Dublin, Ireland
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    Blog Entries


    The way the inexperienced gain experience is very simple: you actually work to GAIN IT... join the clubs, get involved in showing, find a mentor amongs the people also involved in the clubs who show and breed, and give thanks that someone will now help a novice to learn the wealth of information one needs to know before they are ever ready to breed themselves. If you read through the links I posted, you'll note that at least one mentions that spending 2-3 years before breeding is considered standard before a person can even begin to pick up what they need to know to start. And that would still be with breedings guided by a mentor for several years. Anyone who thinks 2-3 years advance work is a waste of time is stating right there that they don;t find the breed worth putting any time into and that says it all in terms of breeding. I've now had cavaliers for close to three years and don;t feel remotely close to being able to make breeding decisions. How genes work still make my head pound and I am a science and tech journalist by trade!!

    Second: No animal is a sickly and cursed animal.

    Labradoodles were created for a specific purpose and have been -- by ethical people -- carefully bred for a long time to serve as guidedogs. They also have a blen of looks and personality that many people like in a pet. It is unfortunate as far as I am concerned that they were given such a stupid name -- not least because almost all dog breeds except some very ancient breeds evolved though mixing breeds for a purpose (but note that purpose was carefully thought through -- it wasn;t a matter of throwing any two dogs together and giving them stupid 'blend' names to sell to silly people with too much money, when there are millions of mixes badly needing homes in every pound and helter in the world, every day).

    The problem now is that the people who do the crosses, despite what they make themselves out to be, are trash breeders. No ethical breeder wishes to see a blend of cavalier and poodle that brings out all the worst genes in each lines (which is just as likely as getting the desired qualities, and is why there are some health and behaviour problems -- and no consistency in appearance -- in these crosses). So no ethical breeder would sell a good quality dog to someone without a spay/neuter clause and with the expectation that it's careful breeding would be used for trash crossings. Therefore you can expect the breeding stock of crossbreeders to be of extremely poor quality, greatly raising the likelihood that the crosses will get plenty of negative genes, on both health and behaviour front, and/or will pass these along if the dog is then bred itself (and none would be sold on any kind of restricted contract of course).

    And people who are selling crosses are making a mint off a stupid public. Spend any time at a shelter and you can find the same cross for nothing. Or one that is equally or more charming. Given the murkiness of the kind of people who would deliberately breed dogs in this way, I'd doubt a lot of the time thast these are even the mixes people say they are so people are doubly ripped off.

    There are other lists and forums where people are very happy to go talk about mixes and breeding -- this isn't one of them, and ways of breeding is not even open to debate here (one of the few topics that isn;t -- but I feel very stroingly about this from working on both the cavalier health and rescue front, and as an owner of a dog with symptomatic syringomyelia) -- so I am going to close this thread now (which unfortunately was hijacked well away from the original topic -- if people wish to introduce totally off topic subjects, please start a new thread as it isn't fair to the person who might have been seeking answers or help or encouragement to have the thread used for a completely different purpose.
    Cavaliers: Tansy : Mindy Connie Roxy Neasa Gus
    In memory: My beautiful Jaspar Lucy Leo Lily Libby


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