Adverse Reaction to Booster

Hi, I wonder if anyone has found this problem when their Cavalier got its Booster. I took Loui, my 6 year old Cavalier for his booster last Thursday. He was his usual energetic self before he got it. However, on Friday morning he was unable to climb the stairs and has been very listless and off his food since then. He always jumps up on the couch to look out the window but is even unable to get on to the couch. I did take him back to the vet on Saturday morning but he said it could have been a stomach bug and gave him antibiotics. He just doesn't seem the same dog since this booster and I would appreciate any advice.
Regards, Karen

It sounds more like an adverse reaction to me though of course it could be a bug and a coincidence in timing. If he isn't better 48 hrs after the booster I'd get him to another vet for a second opinion; I am surprised your own vet wouldn't have considered a reaction a strong possibility though there isn;t necessarily much that cn be done after the fact. Cavaliers are known to have a higher incidence of reactions to vaccinations than many other breeds.

In general I would not give this dog another booster however -- especially if you have given them annually to date. Vet schools now recommend once every three years for boosters, not annually, as annual boosters can actually worsen health in some dogs and each time, puts pressure on the immune system.

Please read:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=137

Thank you Karlin for your advice. I have made an appointment with the other Vet this evening so will post a reply tomorrow on what she says.
Karen

Let us know what you found out Karen.

Hope Loui is soon better. Let us know how you get on. Cimetidine is excellent for upset tummies, especially if the stools are mucousy :yuk: Maybe the 2nd vet will give you some?

When I had Joly, his breeder warned me to tell the vet that his mum had a problem with vaccination. Daisy had her needle, but on getting home, some 10 minutes away, she was having breathing difficulties. She was rushed back and after an antidote was fine, but must not be vaccinated again.

For both of his puppy jabs, my vet had us wait for half an hour before leaving, but Joly was fine, as was his litter sister, who stayed with the breeder. She explained that any reaction would take place within that half hour and that Daisy would have shown a reaction to the egg albumen used as a carrier and not the actual vaccine.

KarenCarberry said:

Thank you Karlin for your advice. I have made an appointment with the other Vet this evening so will post a reply tomorrow on what she says.
Karen

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sorry to hear this Karen--you might contact a homeopathic pharmacy and ask what they could recommend to help with healing and recovery.

something that bothers me about this is that the vet would not seriously consider the possibility that it's a reaction, maybe it's not but it's surely possible, and if so, it should be reported to the vaccine manufacturers. If vets don't report possible adverse reactions, then the manufacturers will inaccurately assess the safety of the product and they will sell the product based on the info that they have. Without feedback about adverse reactions, the manufacturers can't do much about revising their recommendations and working on safer products. You might ask the second vet to report it to the manufacturer as a possible reaction, what could be the harm in that?

Maybe the first vet did take it seriously and did report it, but just didn't want you to know, for fear you might not continue have vaccinations.

Underreporting of adverse reactions is a known problem within the veterinary field, dealt with extensively in the report and guidelines recently published by the American Animal Hospital Association and by the American Veterinary Medical Association. These leaders of the field are imploring vets to become more open to the possibility of adverse reactions and to report them diligently, but again, a real problem is recognized. Your first vet's reaction is not atyptical.

good luck, i hope your baby comes out of this condition soon and will be fine.

Barbara Nixon said:

...my vet had us wait for half an hour before leaving....She explained that any reaction would take place within that half hour and that Daisy would have shown a reaction to the egg albumen used as a carrier and not the actual vaccine.

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some kinds of reactions can happen in the days and weeks following the vaccination. Zack was completely fine the same day of the vaccination, but had a reaction on the second day, lethargy, depression and great tenderness at the vaccination site. He also had a relapse of the diarrhea he had been successfully treated for a week before the vaccination. Whether that relapse was caused or contributed to by the vaccination i don't know, but it seems reasonable to consider, as vaccinations impair immunity for a limited time after the shot. When Zack had this personality change and malaise the day after the shot, i called the vet and they said this is normal and not to worry.

Hi, well here is the update on Loui! I took him to see the other vet last night. She didn't think that he was unwell due to the vaccination, she said that would have been instant - ie anaphylactic shock. However, she did give him a more thorough examination that the 1st vet. She found his tummy very tender, checked his anal glands, which were ok. He didn't like her touching his back but she couldn't tell if the pain was related to his back or tummy... She thought it could also be muscular pain. Anyway, she gave him 2 injections, one antibiotic and one steroid and I've to take him back tonight. He managed to eat some dinner last night, a nice piece of boiled cod and seemed a wee bit brighter this morning, so will see how we get on tonight at the Vets. Thanks for all your messages, will keep you posted on how he's doing.
Karen

hmmmmm

My friend's dog had her annual booster about a month ago. The next day the poor dog couldn't walk.

The vet said she'd had a 'stroke' and that there was no possible way it could be connected to the booster. The dog is a Beardie cross and Nicki has since told me that Beardies have a predisposition to adverse vacc reactions too.

My friend's dog is still semi-paralysed, walks round in circles constantly, but does wag her tail still.

It annoys me so much that the veterinary profession at times close ranks and discount the possibility of any adverse side-effects to vaccs.

Cailean & Declan's breeder maintains that the annual boosters actually aggravate the incidence of MVD. Their dam is 10+ years old, without a murmur. Cailean & Declan both got rapid onset MVD at the age of 6, and Declan lived 8 months from diagnosis .

I don't know - it may be a coincidence. I will be looking at homeopathic options for my doggy family.

Hope things are better soon.

x

Doggydad said:

...There is no way to be sure, and I know there are those that will debate these issues but we are convinced that our Charley's IT problems began with his annual shots.

In our case, we wouldn't innoculate another dog past five years old without a Titers test. However, from what I'm understanding, that's still not conclusive...

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Hi Jim, i read your painful but hopeful and loving story of Charley in the Intro forum. He is really adorable! what a happy loving face he has. Just imaging what it has been like to see him so ill hurts to think about. I can understand you suspecting that the vaccination was a trigger and being wary of over-vaccination at this point. It's scary and disturbing to think of how fast this can happen, a sudden change from a healty dog to a very sick one.

My Zack just turned one year old and I've had him since January. I started off knowing nothing about vaccination risks, was researching dogs and cavaliers on the net in the first couple of weeks i had Zack, and stumbled, by way of a holistic oriented site that was critical of commercial major brand dog foods and such, onto a discussion email list called Beyond Vaccinations. There is a range of opinion and experience presented there.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BeyondVaccination/

The list owner is Christie Keith. Christie is a good source of info about this subject.

Here is a link to a very comprehensive article by Christie, posted on her website, on the subject of re-vaccinating already vaccinated dogs, which you bring up.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

There is lots of info out there, lots of food for thought, and quite a bit of credible support for belief in the safety of minimal vaccination, particularly in animals who may be especially vulnerable to chronic health problems, when weighing risks and benefits. Many things have to be taken into account, such as prevalence of diseases in the area where the dog lives, and various other factors.

Here's some sources of information that I've found enlightening:

http://www.aahanet.org/About_aaha/vaccine_guidelines06.pdf

(among other things, lots of discussion of the uses and value of titer testing, and on duration of immunity being much longer than traditionally believed, possibly lifelong, in the case of the most important viral diseases).

There are some resources that have made a strong impression on me in my study of this subject. Zack is coming up on a year since his first vaccinations. I am going to have titers done shortly. If he has clear evidence of immunity from the original vaccinations, I will probably not get boosters. The reasons are covered in the article linked above.

I've been influenced as well by vaccination researchers Jean Dodds and Ronald Schultz. Both are world renown leaders in their profession (Schultz was an author of the AAHA guidelines), highly respected in the veterinary fiedl, they are co-leaders of the planned rabies challenge study, now awaiting adequate funding in order to begin, it will be a large scale study, intended to provide hard evidence for what those with extensive experience already know about duration of immunity The goal is to provide persuasive evidence that will lead to changes in laws requiring unjustified and health threatening yearly vaccinations. Decades of experience have lead Schultz and Dodds to believe strongly in minimal vaccination schedules, for rabies and the other core viral vaccinations.

Here is Jean Dodd's resume--note that at the beginning of her career, she did research for the state of New York on inherited and acquired bleeding diseases in animals. Her original and continuing specialty is hematology, along with immunology, nutrition and holistic medicine.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM

Dr Dodds is accessable to discuss issues/questions--by phone and by email.

Your vet sounds wonderful. As you said, trust in one's vet is a key thing, being allowed to be with Charley during surgery is excellent, i think that must be uncommon for vets to allow that. I know that helped Charley's surgery and recovery, and helped his mom and dad a lot too.

wishing you and charley lots of healing and health in the future, and a smooth eventual departure from prednisone. I share your suspicion about a relationship between immune depression from steroids and the pneumonia. At this point though, it sounds like Charley is benefitting from getting a great deal of immune system and health support, showing a strong healthy response!

I am particularly interested in your positive experience with Charley's acupuncture. My vet, who i have well-earned trust in, is a licensed veterinary acupuncturist, but Zack has never had a treatment, so far not needed. How long are the treatments? I've had acupuncture many times, and the treatments are usually about a half hour. wondering how this works with dogs.

All the discussions make very interesting reading. It makes me think that Loui became unwell due to his booster... However, I am pleased to report that he seems much better now. He is almost back to his usual chrirpy self... He managed to climb the stairs last night, a bit slower than normal, but the night before he wouldn't even try and I had to carry him up... and this morning he managed to climb on to the back of our couch to get in his favourite position of looking out the window...

Thanks for all your good wishes for Loui!
Karen

judy Posted:
I can understand you suspecting that the vaccination was a trigger and being wary of over-vaccination at this point. It's scary and disturbing to think of how fast this can happen, a sudden change from a healty dog to a very sick one.

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Hi Judy,
First, can't thank you enough for the list of resources. What a wealth of information. As you can imagine, we are O-D'ing on the subject right now.

As far as your comment above, what was so uncanny about Karen's post was the similarity in the description of Loui's reaction and our experience with Charley. Within 24 hrs of Charley's shots, he began to act listless and abnormal. That was so contrary to his normal, excited, always wired personality that it gave us immediate concern. Then, when we just tried to pick him up like we always do for hugs and kisses, he cried out in pain. We knew then that there was something amiss and thus, began our odyssey.

judy Posted:
Your vet sounds wonderful. As you said, trust in one's vet is a key thing, being allowed to be with Charley during surgery is excellent, i think that must be uncommon for vets to allow that. I know that helped Charley's surgery and recovery, and helped his mom and dad a lot too.

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Can't say enough about our vet. We are blessed to have a specialist that is open and flexible with a balance between Western medicine, Holistic Medicine and Acupuncture. Not to speak of his ability to deal with my better half who believe me, she is like a pit bull when she commits to something. :lotsaluv:

judy Posted:
wishing you and charley lots of healing and health in the future, and a smooth eventual departure from prednisone. I share your suspicion about a relationship between immune depression from steroids and the pneumonia. At this point though, it sounds like Charley is benefitting from getting a great deal of immune system and health support, showing a strong healthy response!

I am particularly interested in your positive experience with Charley's acupuncture. My vet, who i have well-earned trust in, is a licensed veterinary acupuncturist, but Zack has never had a treatment, so far not needed. How long are the treatments? I've had acupuncture many times, and the treatments are usually about a half hour. wondering how this works with dogs.

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I am tickled to report that our Charley is responding positively to his treatments of Acupuncture and natural herbs. Here is our / his current status and routine;

He goes into our vet every Monday for his CBC (Complete Blood Count test) and general examination for his recent surgery. The vet does his own count but we pay extra every week for him to send it to a independent lab out of state for a back-up which provides a hand count.

Then the following day, every Tuesday, my wife takes him to Gainesville (2-1/2 hrs each way) to the Florida University's Vet Clinic for his Acupuncture sessions. :drivecar:

The actual session takes 45 minutes to an hour, depending on whether or not there are grad vet students observing. From 30 - to 40 needles are used at each session depending on our description of his recent condition & behavior along with the CBC results for the week. The Acupuncturist began Electro-Acupuncture 2-weeks ago which has shown a marked improvement.

Our Charley is one of 5 dogs (of different breeds) the University's clinic is currently treating for immune problems with supposedly cutting edge Acupuncture. Four out of the five, including our Charley, are reportedly responding positively. The one not responding is apparently an older dog ( a Rotty) with multiple issues.

We (our vet and the Acupuncturist working together) began weening Charley off of Pred 3-weeks ago. This past Monday marked a full week of being off of Pred completely so needless to say we were holding our breath for the CBC results. I am elated to report that Charley's counts came up slightly after being a full week off of Pred which believe me is a milestone around here right now. His counts this week were; our vet - 130,000, independent lab (hand counted) - 160,000.

We feel that Charley is now on the road to recovery and the best part is hopefully, without the continued use of organ killing steriods. We consider ourselves very lucky so far with this outcome for our precious little angel.

KarenCarberry Posted
Thanks for all your good wishes for Loui!

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Karen,
Sounds like Loui is on the mend. That's great!
Best wishes for speedy recovery.

Please be aware that titers are not considered accurate in many situations -- they can show no protection where there is protection, and the reverse as well. That is one reason why many vets use them with caution, including holistic vets.

A three year vaccine is not considered controversial in the scientific world, but it may take time to find a vet who is comfortable with such a schedule when their training stressed otherwise.

Steroids have enormous benefit in treating all sorts of things. Many dogs would be dead without having the option there of taking them, and many SM dogs will spend years on them. There are various ways of managing them so that they have less of an impact if they need to be taken long term. Usually there are not many options to taking them when they are definitely needed.

Also, unless a dog is on steroids for a long period it is not going to have an affect on suppressing the immunity short term.

Dr Dodds is not without her own controversies and questionable judgements on some issues, including SM, where some researchers are disturbed by some of the things she has said. Hence I think no one should EVER assume any one person has the answers -- there are no gurus out there who know everything. There are KNOWN risks in assuming a dog has been protected for three years, even -- but this is considered to be a good risk window that will apply to most but not ALL dogs. Vaccination in this sense is an incomplete science. But as I have noted before, if you compare the number of deaths and serious side effects in humans that happened every single year due to diseases that are now routinely vaccinated against, against the minute proportion of adverse affects to vaccinations, anyone would have to be crazy IMHO to go back to the days of my parents and grandparents when children you knew routinely died in childhood from measles, rubella, whooping cough and polio. We've become very blase to the sheer fact of childhood death due to these things -- and wonderfully privilege to be able to worry about vaccines -- in the past five decades. I can speak from the experience of having acquired a MILD version of measles before it was realised a booster was needed, back in the late 80s -- and I was so sick I could hardly move, semi-conscious, and out of work for two weeks. That was a mild case -- I can understand how there can be brain damage and death due to something we now mostly laugh off as a funny sounding condition from the past.

Anyway the point here is, please do not just read things on the internet (or even advice here )and assume they are true, reliable, or apply to your own experience or your own dog's needs. The best approach is to stay informed but read with extreme caution and seek opposing viewpoints as many websites and individuals can sound very persuasive while only presenting part of a picture -- or a completely false picture.

In particular please folks, do not try holistic remedies on your own that you find on the internet unless in full consultation with your regular vet (who of course may him or herself practice as a holistic vet). Just because something is 'holistic' doesn't mean it cannot have serious consequences when combined with other treatments or when applied to the wrong condition. Having heard of one situation where a cranio sacral 'therapist' did a sharp neck manipulation on an SM dog :yikes :yikes :yikes I have some serious problems with purveyers of alternative approaches unless there is some way of absolutely verifying their skill and approach as legit and informed.

Also I think it is very important to stress that some reaction to vaccines is totally normal. This is different from an immediate adverse reaction like an anaphylactic reaction, which can be very dangerous. Or a medium to long term impact that seems to come from a vaccine -- eg more than a day or two of mild after-effects. I'd want to discuss that with a vet to see if it should be of concern.

Any vaccine puts some stress on the immune system BECAUSE THAT IS HOW VACCINES WORK. That is what stimulates the system to produce the antibodies that offer PROTECTION. So some tiredness etc is *totally normal*. Having had a range of vaccines once for a trip to Africa I can note that people can have very similar reactions, they are very well documented, and vary from person to person. I was wiped out by the yellow fever vaccine -- very groggy -- but would not have gone to Africa without it!! Please keep balancing risk in mind when thinking about vaccines.

Doggydad said:

...I am tickled to report that our Charley is responding positively to his treatments of Acupuncture and natural herbs. ..We (our vet and the Acupuncturist working together) began weening Charley off of Pred 3-weeks ago. This past Monday marked a full week of being off of Pred completely so needless to say we were holding our breath for the CBC results. I am elated to report that Charley's counts came up slightly after being a full week off of Pred which believe me is a milestone around here right now. His counts this week were; our vet - 130,000, independent lab (hand counted) - 160,000...

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That is so awesome! After reading your posts from September--wow. It's so good to hear about how well Charley is doing.

Karen--i'm so happy to hear Loui is returning to his old self. Maybe the vaccination caused arthritis throughout his body, sore joints and muscles. I had a measles or rubella (not sure) vaccination after giving birth to my daughter when i was in my mid thirties, and later, not the same day, maybe several days later or more, i got painful arthritis, my joints swelled up, my knees had big swelling around them and i got large hard swollen lymph nodes in various parts of my body. Because it happened some time after the vaccination and i received no warning of the possibility, i didn't associate it with the vaccination. I thought i had some terrible illness, maybe cancer. I felt very unwell and scared. I don't remember now what led me to consider the vaccination, but when i did read up on it in the PDR, the manufacturer's article said something like 2/3 of women have lymphadenopathy and 1/3 get arthritis within a week following the vaccination, or maybe it was the other way around. I was surprised that my doctor wouldn't have warned me about this. I called my doctor's office to report the reaction and the receptionist spoke to the doctor and came back to the phone and said the doctor said there was no way it was caused by the vaccination. But in the PDR, the manufacturer described exactly what happened to me. It wore off over a period of time.

Karlin said:

...Dr Dodds is not without her own controversies and questionable judgements on some issues, including SM, where some researchers are disturbed by some of the things she has said.

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karlin--I would appreciate more details about this. While i don't see anyone as infallible or beyond question of course, i do give people credence for their experience and expertise, of which Dodds has an abundance, and a track record of working effectively to make a positive difference for the health of animals. So she is one of the people i pay attention to and may make decisions influenced by her. Therefore it would be very valuable to me to also be aware of criticisms and questions raised about her ideas and her work, and to be knowledgeable about the factual basis for the criticisms.

Izzy always feels lousy for 24 hours after any shots but Abby could care less. We'll see how she does with her first Rabies shot tmrw.

Hi all! I am completely new to this but my husband (doggydad), however, has just begun posting some of our experiences on this site. This particular subject is close to my heart so I felt compelled to post my first response. While I feel this site is an excellent form for information regarding our cavalier's, I also feel it is a very helpful tool for Cavalier Mommies and Daddies to express their concerns and pass on what knowledge they have learned which in my opinion is invaluable. icon_nwunsure

Karlin Posted:
Please be aware that titers are not considered accurate in many situations -- they can show no protection where there is protection, and the reverse as well. That is one reason why many vets use them with caution, including holistic vets.

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This brings me first to, Titer Testing. Your vet should tell you there are no sure answers for anything. However, when it comes to titer testing, IMHO it is a useful tool when trying to make some hard decisions. Again, Titer testing is not the total answer for everything but in some instances it can help give you some information of possible underlying problems that may exist with your pet that you are unaware of.

My opinion, the more you know, the better your chances of making a good decision. In our particular case, had we done the titer test, it would have alerted us to the fact, that our Charley had an underlying problem in which all of us were unaware of including the vet, and allowed us the time and freedom to explore what the actual possibilities were. In our case, Charley apparently had an immune deficiency problem that never revealed itself until recently, this problem was complicated by over medicating (annual shots) only to learn from the medical profession that this could have triggered the immune problem to be compromised.

Also, unless a dog is on steroids for a long period it is not going to have an affect on suppressing the immunity short term.

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Second, Steroids. There is a time and place for steroids. Yes, steroids can be beneficial to humans as well as animals and can be very effective for treating many illnesses. However, while they are a help in one sense of the word, they are also a hindrance in another. The trick, as I see it, is to learn how to be able to balance it so it is not swayed to one side which I don’t think anyone in the medical profession has been able to do. Let’s face it, any time you have to deal with steroids you know there’s the up side and then there’s the dreaded down side!! Again, depending on the way your pet’s metabolism works we really can’t predict how long it will take before their body can be comprised by the use of steroids. (I can tell you of many I have experienced with Charley at a later date.)

There are KNOWN risks in assuming a dog has been protected for three years, even -- but this is considered to be a good risk window that will apply to most but not ALL dogs. Vaccination in this sense is an incomplete science.

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Third, Vaccinations are a necessary evil. Especially when you have puppies. But with the research I have learned, not all dogs need to vaccinated regularly after the puppy shots are completed. Again, speaking about the 3 year vaccination as well as the yearly vaccinations, the jury is still out on that one. It hasn’t been until recently that I have learned that all dogs are different in the way their body stores vaccines. So if you feel you must vaccine your dog please, please, please do it with CAUTION.!!!! By the way, my research comes from articles given to me by my vet from his resources that he depends on daily to further give his patients the best available care that can be given! When I went looking for answers he cautioned me too about the internet. :cffee: However, the internet has just as much good information as bad so you have to be careful. My suggestion would be if you find something interesting take it to a medical professional that you feel you can trust for their opinion on the accuracy.

I have some serious problems with purveyers of alternative approaches unless there is some way of absolutely verifying their skill and approach as legit and informed.

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Fourth, Alternative medicine, this is where I hope I do not loose most of you!!! Please bear with me. I only say this NOT as a professional but from an experienced, first hand, saw it with my own eyes, doggy mom that would go to the ends of the earth to help my babies. IMHO alternative medicine works!!!! Finding a credited professional in this field is a must!

In the case with my Charley, if it wasn’t for alternative medicine, again IMHO, he would not be on the road to recovery. It’s been a long, tedious, expensive, demanding process but the rewards far out-weigh the alternative! I had gone to a certified acupuncturist years ago with my Shih-tzu who suffered from continuous allergy problems most of his life. I was told about acupuncture then and I felt I should try it. I did not want him to have to depend on steroids for the rest of his life just to fix an allergy problem. At the time, he was 7 years old. Today he is 13 years old and since his treatments many years ago he has never had another allergy problem to this date.

So when my Charley got sick back in June with this immune problem we did the pred’s (as well as Chemo at first) for months to stabilize his platelet count only to find out it wasn’t working for the big picture recovery. Not wanting to loose him or to switch to other alternatives that would lower his resistance even more we elected to go with acupuncture. I have to admit I don’t understand a lot of it. It seems very complicated to learn but I am determined to learn. Since we started his acupuncture treatments (I call them my miracle treatments), over time Charley has stabilized his counts and continues to go up every week. He is full of energy and loves to play again!!! Keep in mind this did not happen over night we took small miracles as they came but under conventional medicine after 4 months Charley was going nowhere except down hill. Since receiving his acupuncture and alternative medicine treatments, to look at him you would never think he was ever sick. Every day he continues to get stronger and healthier. I am sold on alternative medicine. This I can testify to because it has changed all our family’s lives.

Again, it’s important to find credited acupuncturists. Dealing with someone who has years of knowledge and experience makes all the difference in the world. I have learned a lot from this doctor and he is very willing to teach me. I have learned certain foods stimulate certain organs to produce what is needed. Traditional Chinese medicine is so different from western medicine. They look at an illness entirely different. Now I am not saying this is for everyone. You have to be open minded about treating problems differently than you’ve been accustom to with western medicine. I’m only saying when your back is against the wall and you feel there’s no way out but to use conventional means please try to remember my lil story about Charley and think about using alternative options. It could save your pets life along with your sanity. P.S. (As of today Charley has been off steroids for over 12 days no sign of backsliding which is a miracle within itself and is back to his old self). cl*p

I realize there are those that are steadfast with pumping your pets full of conventional meds because it's a tried and true practice and will disagree with venturing off the beaten path. I know because I used to fit solidly in that category. :bang:

I do hope that some of our experiences can be of help to someone that may have reached the end of "conventional" wisdom with their loved one.. :xfngr:

Sorry for the novel!! :yikes