Syringomyelia in 8 week old puppy

I am new to forum, and just picked up my new baby last Saturday. The breeder told me that both parents had been to a cardiologist and opthamologist and both were clear. I did ask her about Syringomyeli and she seemed to not know what I was talking about. I couldn't remember the name but explained to her the symptoms that I read about.
Both parents were on premises. One 5 and one 4, both beautiful dogs and the breeders pets. Since we have been home with Lily, we put a collar on her an she began scratching around her neck. I thought she just didn't like the collar, but she is still scratching and has had it on for 3 days Not excessively, just intermediately. She has let out little whimpers, and her back legs seem to be clumsy. She seems to chew her back legs and lick her front paws. We brought her to the vet when we picked her up, and his only concern was that she was not akc registered, but cksusa registered.

Am I just being paranoid, and these are just normal puppy things? Could the signs of Syringomyelia begin showing at 8 weeks old? If she does have it, does it mean that it will be the sever type since it presented so young, and is it fatal? Any information will be greatly appreciated!

Shay and Lily

I'm no expert, but it sounds like you have an 8 week old puppy! She is doing all the things that puppies do!

Ditto.

I've had two young puppies and both scratched at their collar for much longer than 3 days! Rio ALWAYS staggered backwards when she was doing a poo right into the middle of it :roll: She had wet feet constantly from me washing them :lol: 8 weeks is very young and I'd say it's quite likely her muscles are just not developed yet & thats why she looks clumsy (think of a child - their motor skills take a long time to develop)

Well done on getting a breeder that cardio tests. Very odd that she hadn't heard of SM though?? Considering almost half of all cavs have it

As far as the collar goes, my Chester scratched at his for at least 2 weeks on and off. Just leave the collar on and don't take it off at all and Lily will get used to it. The clumsiness is just typical uncoordinated puppy stumblings and nothing to worry about.

Please, please, PLEASE read all the info on this forum about SM and if you have any questions you can always PM Karlin and she will help you out. Most of all enjoy your floppy, silly, clumsy little baby and give her lots of love, plenty of training and the best food possible and everything will be fine!

Thanks to all! My husband said what you all said. He won't hear of anything being wrong with her. I have never seen a man love a puppy more. It is so funny to see my big, burly 200 pound husband with this little 5 pound baby. When he is home, her little paws don't touch the ground.

I was surprised too that the breeder didn't know what I was talking about, I couldn't pronounce it, but listed the symptoms, and she seemed clueless. I did ask her too about luxating patella, and she said well, all dogs can have that. My vet just loves Cavs, and said they are the best dogs in the world, and that an excellent job is being done to try and stamp out all these genetic issues that Cavs are afflicted with.

I have never seen a more loving puppy, and I have had dogs my entire life. My Old English Sheep Dog, was I thought the most loving dog in the world, but this little girl, at only 8 weeks old, has her beat. All she wants to do is love and please you, and be loved. It would break my heart to see her sick or in pain.

It is hard to image a breeder not having heard of Syringomyelia (SM). AND very few breeders only register CKCSC, USA because it isn't a recognized registery around the world. Enjoy your lil pup-- they don't stay little for long. FWIW- Sandy

Just to reassure you...I agree with all of the above. You have an 8 week old puppy who isn't used to a collar. No biggee. Definitely enjoy her puppyness because before you know it she'll be all grown up. The time just flies by!

I don't think it's unusual your breeder didn't recognize sm. It could be that she knows what it is but prefers not to acknowledge it. Unfortunate...but that's what it is. I spoke with a breeder at one point who told me that "MVD is not nearly as bad as it sounds...it's been blown out of proportion" :yikes Needless to say...I didn't go back to her.

When I told my breeder about Shelby's luxating patellas I had to educate her. Not a good sign...but what's done is done.

I love that your puppy has turned your hubby into mush! Isn't that the best?!

Shay said:

....Since we have been home with Lily, we put a collar on her an she began scratching around her neck. I thought she just didn't like the collar, but she is still scratching and has had it on for 3 days Not excessively, just intermediately. She has let out little whimpers, and her back legs seem to be clumsy. She seems to chew her back legs and lick her front paws. We brought her to the vet when we picked her up, and his only concern was that she was not akc registered, but cksusa registered.

Am I just being paranoid, and these are just normal puppy things? Could the signs of Syringomyelia begin showing at 8 weeks old? If she does have it, does it mean that it will be the sever type since it presented so young, and is it fatal? Any information will be greatly appreciated!
Shay and Lily

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I am just learning about cavaliers in the past year and have just scratched the surface, and have so much to learn, but from what little i've learned, i would say at this age, even if the scratching, yelpking and incoordination are not normal, even if she has a problem, there are many things that could explain the symptoms other than SM. While SM can start at any age and is more severe if it starts early, the things you describe may be normal behavior or may be signs of any number of things. Obviously one thing that can cause frequent scratching, biting paws and legs, could be fleas, even fleas that aren't seen, it only takes one.

And skin allergies can cause scratching. Allergies in puppies and dogs can be caused by lots of things, environmental things in a new home, things in their food. Some pups have what may be reactions to vaccinations which have allergic kind of symptoms.

You did right, having her checked by a vet, and it sounds like there is no sign of anything abnormal.

About leaving the collar on, my daughter Lisa's breeder told her to leave the collar off except when going out for a walk, just because she said it would be better for the coat and fur, the look of it. In getting a puppy used to a collar, it does make sense to keep it on them.

I've never kept a collar on Zack except when we go out, and it's not a collar, it's a halter. I choose to avoid a collar to avoid any possible risk of aggravating any tendency toward SM, a disease that originates from a skull malformation that originates in the area where a collar pulls against the neck. I understand this is a fairly common practice among cavalier owners, to avoid using a collar in favor of using a halter, also because of small dog trachea injury risks.

Other than going for walks, i'm not sure what would be the purpose of having a collar on a dog, unless there's a risk of them escaping and they would need to be wearing their tags at all times.

When i first met Zack, at the home of the woman i got him from, he wasn't scratching but i did see a flea on his belly and mentioned it to her. It wasn't until another occasion that i brought him home. She said she uses Advantage on them and that he had recently had advantage. At first, i didn't notice a lot of scratching, but when i did see him scratch, i thought it was from those fleas i'd seen on him, although i was no longer seeing any.

Zack had bloody diarrhea the day i got him. He otherwise seemed fine, happy, playful, energetic. He was seen by a vet and said to be fine, and was given medication for the diarrhea which cleared up the next day completely. I'm not sure, because i didn't write it down, if he continued to scratch that week.

A week after he saw the vet, because the diarrhea had stopped and he seemed well, i took him to have the last of his puppy shots. Soon, the diarrhea returned, and he was scratching a lot. I was worried about SM because Advantage didn't help with the scratching and i wasn't seeing any fleas. He had one episode of suddenly starting to shriek in the middle of while he was scratching his neck, and while screeching, he got up and ran into the house. I was very worried and upset about that.

He continued to scratch a lot for the next 3 weeks and also started vomiting, and continued to be receiving medications for diarhhea, vomiting, colitis, with no improvement.

Finally he was treated for worms, although he had been previously dewormed, he had three negative stool samples, and no worms were seen by me in any stools or vomit, but immediately after the first dose of the worming medication, the vomiting stopped, the diarrhea cleared up permanently, and the frequent neck scratching stopped.

There was never anything seriously wrong with him--but he was sick for weeks because no one guessed at first what was wrong with him, and scratching was a major symptom which at the time was not taken seriously as anythig abnormal.

i hope your girl is just having normal things going on, and at the same time, i support your maternal instincts and your efforts to become informed about the possiblities. SM seems so unlikely, there's no reason to worry about it at this point because if she has any problem at all, it's likely to be any number of benign simple things.

Thanks for your concern! I am probably just being overly paranoid. My last dog a Lhasa Apso was a very sickly dog and I literally spent a fortune on her medical problems through the years. She was at deaths door more than once in her and had it not been for the wonderful Vets I use, she would not be here today. She is now 13, and lives with my 80 year old Mother who would not survive long I'm afraid without Chole. They are inseparable. Even though I did a lot of research on Cavs, and my Vet highly recommended them, I don't think I really grasped thier medical problems. But my thoughts are that all pure breed dogs have thier issues. My Lhasa certainly does. The only pure breed that I have owned that was very healthy was my Old English Sheep Dog who lived to the ripe old age of 14. Old for such a large dog. As my vet said, "if you want a very health dog, adopt from a shelter" He's right of course, but I had my heart set on a Cav. I'm not complaining and I'm ready for any medical problems with Lily, I just don't want to miss anything that could be a sign of something more serious. She does not have fleas as I can tell, but the Vet said she was too young for Advantage. She does drag her butt, but she was tested for worms and he didn't say she had any. I haven't noticed any in her stool, but I know butt dragging is a sign. I thought she may butt dragging due to the rectal exam. She also licks her wee-wee and grabs at her rear a lot. She is scheduled for her next round of shots next week and I will ask the Vet more about SM then and the butt dragging/licking and rear grabbing. He didn't mention SM at all when I was there on Saturday, but did talk a lot about MVP and eye problems with the breed. He was relieved when I told him both her parents had been checked out by specialist. This is a great site for Cav parents, and thank you all for your insight. You are right about there being a lot to learn about these special dogs.

Like others have said, an 8 week old pup is just getting used to a collar and getting used to all kinds of new things. My Pixie is a shrieker. Such a little wimp. Anything out of the ordinary can cause it...if she's snoozing on the floor and a cat zooms past, she'll yelp...if a sheepdog sets foot in our driveway...she yelps, the first few times she went to scratch and her foot touched her harness...a yelp, an acorn falling from the tree and landing near her...a yelp. :roll: :roll: :roll:

BTW, here's an audio of syringomyelia

http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/pronounce?id=S0973600&path=prons/S0973600.wav

Congratulations on your new puppy! You're in for a world of love.

Sm in an 8 week old is very rare -- generally it is progressive and I only know a few puppies that young that have shown any symptoms.

If the other registry is CKCSC that is a perfectly acceptable registry for cavaliers. Make sure it IS CKCSC though. No good breeder in the US will register a cavalier with anything but CKCSC or AKC and sometimes both (there are quite a lot of overhanging politics between the two clubs but either is a good club) -- HOWEVER a proper registration is not a sign of a good breeder just as a driver's licence isn;t the sign of a good driver -- finding a good breeder begins with one that registers properly, but requires lots of other research. More important than the issue of luxating patella clearances for example is whether the breeder showed you the cardiac certifications for both sire and dam and perhaps those for grandparetns as well. They should both have had clear certs within a year of having this litter.

Many breeders do not know about SM -- but I'd be a bit concerned if a club registered breeder that has any real familiarity with the show and breeding worlds did not even know what it is at ALL. It is now pretty widely known across the clubs, the clubs have held seminars and fund research, and it is a common topic on the breeder discussion lists. Also if the breeder keeps up with any current discussion on the breed in the past two years it would be really hard to see how she wouldn't know about SM -- it has been in the club bulletins, is on the club websites, and in the breed magazines. That wouldn't make me worry about the puppy's risks of SM, but would raise some questions about the breeder, at least for me.

The scratching is most likely discomfort with a collar. Puppies do tend to drag their butts sometimes and generally need to be wormed a couple of times -- follow your vet's guidance. If it keeps sapping at its hindquarters though I'd want the vet to check for rabbit motes perhaps -- a lot of puppies have this and for some reasons some vets aren't familiar with it. Mine came home from the breeder with them and had a lot of these signs at the time. They are quite large mites, and the pup will look like it has dandruff flakes you can scratch up off the skin.

If you feel concerned still, try keeping a diary that tracks the behaviour you are concerned about -- that will give you a sense of whether it really is frequen, as you can share this with your vet for a professional opinion.

I have an extensive list of symptoms at my SM website, http://sm.cavaliertalk.com, along with ,ots of other info and a video of my own SM dog, Leo. You will see there that it is unusual for puppies to show symptoms before 6 months. And in general there are so many things that could cause all the things that you describe that I'd really just focus on enjoying your puppy, looking for other causes if the behaviour continues, and only really consider SM if the behaviour fails to change at all over time and the vet cannot find anything else to cause it. I think you will find there's nothing to be worried about though.

BTW your vet is wrong about healthy dogs being mixed breeds from shelters. All research shows only the first generation cross between two breeds has the benefit of what they call 'hybrid vigour' -- but can also get all the BAD genes of BOTH breeds too! After that -- and most crosses are several generation crosses, not a PB to a PB -- they have all the same risks as any dog. One of the advantages of PBs from a good breeder who is health focused is that temperament will be reliable and consistent, too -- with mixes you never know what you are getting. That isn't necessarily an issue for many people but in my case I wanted a particular type of personality and a dog known for getting along well with cats.

The paperwork she gave me just says Continental Kennel Club and lists the Sire and Dam with thier CKC #'s and has a stamp that says "Purebred" with a Bar Code and an application number. My vet was concerned about this as well, and wondered why she did not register with AKC. I wasn't that concerned about this because I was not going to show or breed her. I wanted her just as a pet. I am now concerned about health issues if she is not a reputable breeder. How concerned should I be? She said this is the first litter she has bred with her 2 Cavs and she has only had Cavs for 5 nd 4 years (her two). No, she did not show me the health certificates from the cardiologist or the opthamologist that she said gave them an all clear. But I didn't ask to see them either. I took her word, I was so in love with the puppies. This was my mistake. Her dogs were beautiful and looked very healthy at least for the hour I was there. Her house was immaculate as were the puppies and her dogs. She and her husband seemed to truly love these animals. This is the first time I have ever seen Cavs listed for sale in our paper and I have been looking for over a year. I did see many on line, but I was unsure about buying a dog on line. I agree with you about her not knowing about SM. I only researched the bred and know about it. I have never owned one or known anyone who did. It does seem strange, unless she didn't want me to know, for what ever reason , or I didn't explain it properly. But still...... Oh well, here's to hoping for the best, and that Lily is fine. I will go over all of this with the Vet next week. Thanks for all of the information. I have a lot to learn about this breed.

OK that is NOT good. That is a backyard breeder registry I'm afraid, used by breeders who are breeding simply to make money from the pet market... see:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=216

Please don't be upset with yourself, as many on the board have been there when they got their first cavalier and didn't realise how many people out there present themselves as responsible -- but are not. Hopefully she has actually done the heart testing she claims in which case you are on somewhat better ground (her patella reply would have had me suspicious too -- what she says is nonsense) -- but if and when you opt for a second cavalier, you'll know the things to watch for from backyard breeders and brokers. It is very frustrating there are so many like this, but they prey on people's innocence and trust. :x

Generally this is what you are looking for in a good breeder:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2757

Please enjoy your puppy without worries, as I am sure she is a lovely little thing and will bring you much pleasure, and medical conditions are not common. But with such breeders, you cannot believe anything they will say or claim... and it doesn;t surprise me that she hadn't heard of SM. :?

At this point, it seems that further concern over this breeder will probably not lead to any useful conclusion. You're head over heals for your pup, and you'd never give it back, I imagine.

Just love your pup and handle whatever comes up. If you ever get another puppy, you'll have a better understanding of what you should ask a breeder.

So right! She's ours now and a sweeter puppy, I've never seen. She has my husband totally wrapped around her little paw. He just came home with presents for her. LOL

I have 2 cavaliers from the same litter, a boy and a girl. My girl was the smallest and my boy was the largest. They were brought up beautifully in the kitchen, with attention anbd socialization. But, the breeders were first time breeders also. the pups were registered, and the parents had health clearances. Everything appeared to be great.

Then: My pups scratched, scooted, and had red eyes shortly after I brought them home and let them play in the my gardens. They were 9 weeks old when we brought them home.
I made myself, the breeder and their vet crazy. I also thought that they had SM. Now, when I look back on what I did I was over reacting to everything they did and did not do.

The first thing that helped was to change the diet. After I eliminated corn , soy wheat, etc and put them on Solid Gold a holistic kibble most of the problems stopped. Also over vaccination of a puppy can cause some of the problems that you have described. Make sure the collar is soft. My two hardly ever scatch anymore and they wear a halter on leash. She will be much happier and healthier with a halter.

Good luck!!!!

As I stated in previous posts, I have a 13 year old Lhasa, who has severe medical problems. Right now and for the past year, she has been fighting a yeast infection on her tummy, ears, and vagina. It has also affected her muscles, and she has arthritis, and her hid legs will give out from time to time. The Vet has told me that it will never be cured, as her immune system is shot from all her previous illnesses and medication. All we can do is treat the symptoms. I have asked him many times if she is suffering. He will always ask the same questions. Is she eating? Does she still want to play some? Always the answer is yes. He tells me that there are signs when a dog is suffering and near the end, but tells me that he will not tell me what they are, because we will constantly be staring at her waiting to see the signs. Now I understand why he said this. Sure, knowledge is power, but sometimes too much information is worse than none at all.

Shay said:

Sure, knowledge is power, but sometimes too much information is worse than none at all.

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You couldn't have said it better! When I was researching Jake's cancer I just had to stop....everything I read was so distressing...and we ended up no having to deal with any of it.

I had a cat who passed shortly after we got Jake. She had abdominal lymphoma. We spent 18 months wondering if today was the day. My vet told me to enjoy each and every day and said that as well as we knew her (she was 13 years old) we would know when it was time. Sure enough that day came and we let her go that night. She let us know she was done fighting and we were able to let her go before she lost her quality of life.

Karlin wrote:

OK that is NOT good. That is a backyard breeder registry I'm afraid, used by breeders who are breeding simply to make money from the pet market.

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I was feeling pretty foolish, but thanks to you Karlin, and all of the wonderful members who have replied, I am feeling much better. I did not realise that back yard breeders could be as bad as puppy mills, and pet stores. I paid $1800.00 for Lily, but I knew that these little dogs were expensive and I was prepared to spend that amount. I was really mad at myself for not asking her more questions, and being uncomfortable with some of her answers. I was so excited that I only had to drive 2 hours from my home and this was the first time I had ever seen this breed so close to home, where I could actually see the puppies and the parents. Once I was there, there was no way I was leaving without this little dog. She chose me, and wouldn't leave my side the whole time we were thier. So, I guess it was meant to be.

I will be taking pictures of Lilly today, and will post.

Thanks to all of you for your words of encouragement and sharing your stories with me

It is very hard to walk away from puppies you have seen -- that is what pet shops, brokers and backyard breeders count on. I hate how they take advantage. Most breeders of this sort are just ignorant and deliberately stay that way. In other words, they like their cavaliers and decide it would be fun to breed them and they'd make some 'easy money'. They are not involved with the breed or care about it beyond these aspects of instant gratification. They are stymied to encounter a puppy buyer like you who actually asks any questions as undoubtedly, they never did any research when getting their own cavaliers and just bought to breed or bought and decided to breed. As you found yourself, doing even a modicum of research on cavaliers on the internet would have thrown up all the health issues. So a breeder who really, truly isn't aware of any of this must deliberately avoid learning or ignore information they know is out there. Certain types of people want to fool themselves and believe that while careful breeding might be a consideration for other breeders, what they are doing is 'just' producing a few puppies for friends and family, or to earn a little money. These are the most dangerous people for the breed and the most delusional, for their puppies are exactly those which spread their potential bad genes further and faster into the general cavalier population, for they probably do not care too much who gets their puppies, and won't ever require spay/neutering.

One thing everyone really needs to remember -- as this is the point many raise about why they want to breed their own 'special' dog -- is almost any cavalier is beautiful, especially in the eyes of the beholder. We *should* all feel our dogs are beautiful -- but also understand that unless we have specific knowledge and training in the breed, show regularly and fully understand the breed standard and how it is interpreted, our cavalier may be way off the breed standard and totally unsuitable for breeding from that aspect alone. His or her coat may be lovely, the face adorable, the personality beguiling -- but if you were sold a puppy as a pet, YOU DON'T HAVE A CAVALIER CONSIDERED TO BE BREEDING QUALITY. No good breeder would have sold such a dog to a pet home except in the most unusual circumstances and unless you have all the knowledge of genetics and health issues, required, the dog still shouldn't be bred. Most first time breeders fall into the delusional group that feel their cavaliers, because they are special to them, are of a quality to be bred. They almost certainly will not be.

Likewise, if anyone thinks they have a dog worth showing, get in touch with your local club, get involved with club events, get to know others in the club, and see if you can bring your dog along to an event to be evaluated by an experienced breeder and show person. Most of the time you will come away disappointed with a pro evaluation, but you will learn much about structure, movement, and the various things that go into making a show quality dog or breeding quality dog. And it might well set you on the road to acquiring that show quality dog and a new hobby!