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Sally gone in heat
- Thread starter sallymum
- Start date
Bruce H
Well-known member
I would recommend waiting at least couple months before spaying if you are thinking you want to do it right away.
Really, though, I like to wait til they are a year or so old if possible so they can mostly finish growing; a lot of differing opinions on this, though. But I know a lot of people don't want to go thru the heat cycles. Since she is just about through her first heat, why not wait 3 or 4 months? That way she gets as much growing in as possible and you get her done before her next season.
Really, though, I like to wait til they are a year or so old if possible so they can mostly finish growing; a lot of differing opinions on this, though. But I know a lot of people don't want to go thru the heat cycles. Since she is just about through her first heat, why not wait 3 or 4 months? That way she gets as much growing in as possible and you get her done before her next season.
duncans_ma
Well-known member
I am no expert, but I know that my vet requires that the dogs they spay are through their first cycle before doing the surgery.
nlg679
Well-known member
Bruce,
My vet kinda made a face when I said I wanted to wait to have Katydid spayed. My breeder said that both Katy's mom and grandmom did not go through their first heat until they were over a year old. Can it be that Katy will be the same???
I really want to wait because I want her to grow first then get fixed.
I think your opinion is satisfactory because of your experience with the breed.
Nancy
Teddy and sweet, little Katydid
My vet kinda made a face when I said I wanted to wait to have Katydid spayed. My breeder said that both Katy's mom and grandmom did not go through their first heat until they were over a year old. Can it be that Katy will be the same???
I really want to wait because I want her to grow first then get fixed.
I think your opinion is satisfactory because of your experience with the breed.
Nancy
Teddy and sweet, little Katydid
Bruce H
Well-known member
Sorry, should have been more specific. By waiting to S/N, it gives the growth plates time to close. I think a lot breeders seem to feel that an early S/N can lead to a dog that is a little "leggy" (long legs) and lighter boned. Here is a good discussion on that (with a thanks to Roycroft Cavaliers): http://www.roycroftcavaliers.com/Early spay neuter article.htm
I'm not surprised that a vet would raise an eyebrow to waiting; we find that most do because I'm sure that is what is taught. We also knew a breeder that got tired of people breeding girls on a S/N contract and registering the puppies with one of the bogus registries, so the breeder did the S/N BEFORE they went to their new home: we definately agreed to disagree on that!
What I would suggest is that people research the pros and cons and make a decision based on that. As I said, there is a lot of disagreement between the "experts" on this.
nlg679: Over a year old before the first season?! That's amazing!! I think the longest any of our girls went was something on the order of 9 months.
I'm not surprised that a vet would raise an eyebrow to waiting; we find that most do because I'm sure that is what is taught. We also knew a breeder that got tired of people breeding girls on a S/N contract and registering the puppies with one of the bogus registries, so the breeder did the S/N BEFORE they went to their new home: we definately agreed to disagree on that!
What I would suggest is that people research the pros and cons and make a decision based on that. As I said, there is a lot of disagreement between the "experts" on this.
nlg679: Over a year old before the first season?! That's amazing!! I think the longest any of our girls went was something on the order of 9 months.
Personally I think it is a matter of first, weighing up where you feel you stand on the health issue, then considering what you feel able to do on the management issue.
One the side of early spay: There is a 7 per cent greater risk of mammary cancers if a spay is done after the first heat; this is well backed up by research. On the other hand, there is evidence and research that shows some dogs grow about an inch taller after a neuter done before the dog is fully finished growing. Some feel it is better for a dog to reach adulthood before cutting off the hormone supply -- and this argument is stronger, for me, that the height issue in causing me to weigh up what I would do. Some feel it may affect bone density but as far as I know there's little evidence on this and millions of dogs that have been spayed/neutered in recent decades have not created a higher incidence of bone problems.
Setting those issues aside, then one has to consider what you feel able to manage, and the risks of not managing carefully enough.
Many people find waiting through a first heat difficult. Others do not. But it does require very careful and cautious management where your dog really should not be taken out for walks or ever turned loose for a run, during the heat period. Also you need to be vigilant with doors, and in the garden -- a male dog (including large breeds -- boys don't care that the girl is a fraction their size!) will potentially scale a 6-7 foot garden fence to reach a female in heat, which they can scent a mile or so away. Females in heat are a major cause for intact males to stray and be lost forever, as well. Whole gangs of males will go for a female in heat of any breed and the result is often, not pleasant. Yet a female in heat may try desperately to escape and get outside, driven by Mother Nature and the very strong call of her own hormones.
If vigilance fails and the dog becomes pregnant? Well, you probably won;t notice this til quite late in the pregnancy then you face the dilemma of whether to do a late spay. And puppies that are most likely going to be a mixed breed if the pregnancy is accidental... are not easy to home and add to the pet overpopulation problem. The world simply does not need more mixed breed or poorly bred puppies -- check out your local shelter or Petfinder and you will find millions of dogs and pups waiting for homes and at risk of pts.
That said, I think *many, many people* can manage a female perfectly well until she is a year if they wish to do so. There will be a slightly increased risk of cancer for that female once she passes through that first cycle. She will also be able to complete her growing phse completely. Others will find waiting a challenge -- and most pet owners will not notice or care about a small bit of added height. Many people will know what is best for them and their situations. Others who are uncertain need to weigh up the two sides and think about what they feel comfortable with from all aspects -- Bruce's point!
I would actually question the bone density theory on the basis that it seems to go against what horse breeders have been doing for centuries. Males are gelded *in order to make them stronger, better jumpers, with more solid bones and better musculature*, according to a long article I was reading recently. Surely the proof is in the pudding -- if steeplechase horse breeders for example know from centuries of breeding that they get a stronger, firmer boned and better muscled horse from gelding a male, I can't see how it would cause weak bones in dogs. Though maybe there's a difference in male and female neutering...
Personally: I would spay a female at 6 months, or perhaps wait til 12; and neuter a male at around 8 months on. Incidentally, Leo and jaspar were neutered at around 8 and 9 months -- one is leggy and was always leggy (Jaspar) and coincidentally -- excellent at agility and jumps; while Leo is just as 'cobby' and compact as he was when I got him. Lily was apparently neutered before a year old and is tiny and compact -- if she grew an extra inch then she needed it as she would be very squat if she didn't have that inch! :lol: I think a lot of this is more related to the individual dog and its growth patterns than spaying or neutering myself, but that is based on my own anecdotal evidence which is totally unscientific. :lol:
One the side of early spay: There is a 7 per cent greater risk of mammary cancers if a spay is done after the first heat; this is well backed up by research. On the other hand, there is evidence and research that shows some dogs grow about an inch taller after a neuter done before the dog is fully finished growing. Some feel it is better for a dog to reach adulthood before cutting off the hormone supply -- and this argument is stronger, for me, that the height issue in causing me to weigh up what I would do. Some feel it may affect bone density but as far as I know there's little evidence on this and millions of dogs that have been spayed/neutered in recent decades have not created a higher incidence of bone problems.
Setting those issues aside, then one has to consider what you feel able to manage, and the risks of not managing carefully enough.
Many people find waiting through a first heat difficult. Others do not. But it does require very careful and cautious management where your dog really should not be taken out for walks or ever turned loose for a run, during the heat period. Also you need to be vigilant with doors, and in the garden -- a male dog (including large breeds -- boys don't care that the girl is a fraction their size!) will potentially scale a 6-7 foot garden fence to reach a female in heat, which they can scent a mile or so away. Females in heat are a major cause for intact males to stray and be lost forever, as well. Whole gangs of males will go for a female in heat of any breed and the result is often, not pleasant. Yet a female in heat may try desperately to escape and get outside, driven by Mother Nature and the very strong call of her own hormones.
If vigilance fails and the dog becomes pregnant? Well, you probably won;t notice this til quite late in the pregnancy then you face the dilemma of whether to do a late spay. And puppies that are most likely going to be a mixed breed if the pregnancy is accidental... are not easy to home and add to the pet overpopulation problem. The world simply does not need more mixed breed or poorly bred puppies -- check out your local shelter or Petfinder and you will find millions of dogs and pups waiting for homes and at risk of pts.
That said, I think *many, many people* can manage a female perfectly well until she is a year if they wish to do so. There will be a slightly increased risk of cancer for that female once she passes through that first cycle. She will also be able to complete her growing phse completely. Others will find waiting a challenge -- and most pet owners will not notice or care about a small bit of added height. Many people will know what is best for them and their situations. Others who are uncertain need to weigh up the two sides and think about what they feel comfortable with from all aspects -- Bruce's point!
I would actually question the bone density theory on the basis that it seems to go against what horse breeders have been doing for centuries. Males are gelded *in order to make them stronger, better jumpers, with more solid bones and better musculature*, according to a long article I was reading recently. Surely the proof is in the pudding -- if steeplechase horse breeders for example know from centuries of breeding that they get a stronger, firmer boned and better muscled horse from gelding a male, I can't see how it would cause weak bones in dogs. Though maybe there's a difference in male and female neutering...
Personally: I would spay a female at 6 months, or perhaps wait til 12; and neuter a male at around 8 months on. Incidentally, Leo and jaspar were neutered at around 8 and 9 months -- one is leggy and was always leggy (Jaspar) and coincidentally -- excellent at agility and jumps; while Leo is just as 'cobby' and compact as he was when I got him. Lily was apparently neutered before a year old and is tiny and compact -- if she grew an extra inch then she needed it as she would be very squat if she didn't have that inch! :lol: I think a lot of this is more related to the individual dog and its growth patterns than spaying or neutering myself, but that is based on my own anecdotal evidence which is totally unscientific. :lol:
thanks for the info something we need to think about i am leaning towards spraying before her first season as i would never forgive myself if she had a cancer that i know i could of prevented. Also i am worried about her having a season as our backgarden has public access along one side even though we have a 5 foot fence possibly a ambitious dog may get to her. And do not want puppies when she is only a puppy herself. Will discuss this with the vet when she goes for final injection at 10 weeks. And see what she suggets i do.
I should clarify that in my last sentence, I meant that I think some individual dogs may be more affected than others, regarding whether they grow a bit more or not (juust as whether their coat may be affected, etc). Not that neutering has no effect at all on any dog and it is only genes.