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Thread: New Breeder Concerns

  1. #1
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    Default New Breeder Concerns

    Several months ago my husband and I decided we wanted to become small time breeders. We have had several breeds over the years and love many different ones. We decided to choose one we had not had but had admired. We did a lot of research and talked to several breeders. We found a breeder who was very knowledgeable about the breed and explained to her we wanted to start out with adults instead of puppies. She had a ruby male for us and a ruby female. She had already breed the female and we were excited. The day before we picked them up the female had complications and they took her to the vet. She had to be put to sleep. We had already paid for them and the owner felt so bad she called several other breeders to find us an adult female. She did find us an adult female and we did pay a little more but she had already been breed also and we figured we would benifit by keeping a girl from the litter. When we picket them up. The female is a blenheim and very tiny. My Ruby male who we had already seen is taller then the standard but we had seen several of his puppies who were all very small so we were not very concerned at his slightly larger build. We had a litter of 4 about 2 weeks after picking up the dogs. One was still born. we lost one to an injury at birth. One was very weak and I had to suppliment feed and the last one was of course the hog. The weak puppy is my new female and the hog is the male I have available to sale. This is a summary of my story. So here are my questions and concerns.

    How important is it to not breed a ruby and a blenheim? I have seen that the standards say rubies should have no white. However, I have seen several litters offered that are just that.

    There are several tests that many breeders have done on the heart and eyes. The nearest place that does it to me is about 2hrs away. I spoke to my vet about the test and the necessity of them. He tells me if he looks at my adults and puppies and has a concern he would recommend that I take them. Are these tests so imperative? Should I have them tested anyway?

    Vet costs are very high when you take all your dogs for shots and wormings etc. I have spoke to several breeders that use different medicines that are designed for other animals as wormers and flea solutions. I questioned my vet about them and of course he said no no dont use them but like I said there are several I have spoke to that use these other medications. How harmful do you think they are if they are distrubuted on a scale equivalent to the dogs weight?

    What about flea control?
    April

  2. #2
    Mic Guest

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    Here is a link to a list of good links for anyone interested in breeding: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2758

    Here is a link to information about what people look for when selecting a breeder and pup:
    http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2757

    Are you a member of either of these clubs:
    Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club USA http://www.ckcsc.org/
    American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club http://www.ackcsc.org/

    Both clubs have a referral list of reputable breeders. Being an active club member would help you find answers to many of your breeding questions. Being listed on these clubs breeder lists is an indication of high standards and reputable breeding practices. I've been burned before by backyard breeders and will only deal with breeders on these lists, or rescue dogs.

    There's a wealth of information here to further your education on breeding and Cavaliers. Good luck!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New Breeder Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Tootie
    Several months ago my husband and I decided we wanted to become small time breeders. We have had several breeds over the years and love many different ones. We decided to choose one we had not had but had admired. We did a lot of research and talked to several breeders. We found a breeder who was very knowledgeable about the breed and explained to her we wanted to start out with adults instead of puppies. She had a ruby male for us and a ruby female. She had already breed the female and we were excited. The day before we picked them up the female had complications and they took her to the vet. She had to be put to sleep. We had already paid for them and the owner felt so bad she called several other breeders to find us an adult female. She did find us an adult female and we did pay a little more but she had already been breed also and we figured we would benifit by keeping a girl from the litter. When we picket them up. The female is a blenheim and very tiny. My Ruby male who we had already seen is taller then the standard but we had seen several of his puppies who were all very small so we were not very concerned at his slightly larger build. We had a litter of 4 about 2 weeks after picking up the dogs. One was still born. we lost one to an injury at birth. One was very weak and I had to suppliment feed and the last one was of course the hog. The weak puppy is my new female and the hog is the male I have available to sale. This is a summary of my story. So here are my questions and concerns.

    How important is it to not breed a ruby and a blenheim? I have seen that the standards say rubies should have no white. However, I have seen several litters offered that are just that.

    There are several tests that many breeders have done on the heart and eyes. The nearest place that does it to me is about 2hrs away. I spoke to my vet about the test and the necessity of them. He tells me if he looks at my adults and puppies and has a concern he would recommend that I take them. Are these tests so imperative? Should I have them tested anyway?

    Vet costs are very high when you take all your dogs for shots and wormings etc. I have spoke to several breeders that use different medicines that are designed for other animals as wormers and flea solutions. I questioned my vet about them and of course he said no no dont use them but like I said there are several I have spoke to that use these other medications. How harmful do you think they are if they are distrubuted on a scale equivalent to the dogs weight?

    What about flea control?
    ************************************************** *******

    I don't know where to start?????

    Why did you want to become breeders? To improve the breed? To show a dog?

    Why would you pick a breed that has devistating health issues if you weren't planning on doing a lot of testing?? MVD, SM, HD etc...

    Why was the female of breeding age put down??

    I don't know any good breeder that would sell a pregnant bitch. Tiny? How tiny? What is her size?

    Depends on the pedigree (whether or not to breed a wholecolor to a parti). What could/would be the benefit to the offspring to do so.

    Specialist are really the only ones to do heart and eye. There is no way a normal vet can determine the retinal health of a dog-- and a cardiologist is trained to hear abnormal heart sounds. Most normal vets only hear BAD murmurs.

    You can do your own dewormings-- some breeders do their own shots-- I get my dogs to the vet twice a year -- so I let him give the innoculations and check ups then.

  4. #4
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    I've moved this topic from "puppy pictures" to "general discussion" as I feel this is a better forum for this. Hope that's okay with everyone.
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  5. #5
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    Hi, and welcome to the board.I am glad that you came here to learn more as before anyone even thinks of breeding, there is so much to be learned -- both generally about dogs, and in particular, about this breed.

    The first thing for me to say is that I set up this board with the sole purpose of encouraging people to care for this breed. That can be interpreted in many different ways, but the single most important ways are 1) that I hope to educate puppy buyers and all who love cavaliers to avoid careless breeders who do not have the breed's health and welfare as their very top priority, and 2) to get people to understand just what is involved in breeding and how, though well intentioned, they can DEVASTATE this wonderful breed through uninformed breeding.

    Uninformed breeding means:

    * breeding without a clear understanding of genetics, dominant, recessive and polygenetic traits, how they are inherited, and what ALL the genetic issues are in this breed.

    * Understanding what makes a cavalier a cavalier -- that it isn't just throwing any two dogs together, but needs a careful understanding of temperament, conformation (breed characteristics) and breed health and health issues -- otherwise good breeding decisions cannot be made, and *dogs will suffer as a result*.

    * not learning enough about the breed basics to know that this breed has some serious, heartbreaking conditions that are probably polygenetic and cannot be spotted unless you do the appropriate health testing (by specialists, vets are not adequate) and follow the recommended breeding protocols. The two most serious and widespread probelms are mitral valve disease and syringomyelia. Half of all cavaliers will have a heart murmur -- the start of MVD -- by age 5. HALF. The incidence is so high because people breed these marvellous dogs indiscriminately, without cardiac testing and without following the MVD breeding protocol. The extremely high incidence of MVD in the breed means cavaliers on average live a fourth to a third fewer years than they should in comparison to other small breeds. Do you know about MVD and SM? Do you know how to test for both? That you should not breed dogs under age 2.5 (who must be heart clear) and whose parents must be heart clear at age 5? Most 'junk breeders' have not tested their dogs and have no idea if they are heart healthy. But if you breed these dogs -- especially undersized dogs that are generally at greater general health risks than breed standard dogs -- you are at high risk of passing along *AN EARLY DEATH* to every puppy, and every puppy's puppy, and so on and so on. A second potentially very serious neurological condition that affects at least one in every three cavaliers is syringomyelia. You can read more about this condition and the steps to take to avoid passing this along to puppies at www.sm.cavaliertalk.com. In addition there are many more considerations that need to be tested for -- patellas, eye conditions, hip dysplasia -- and a breeder needs to know the health history of several generations back in his/her breeding stock.

    Also: just sticking two dogs together -- regardless of colour, which is the least important consideration -- is the most irresponsible and cruel approach to breeding dogs anyone can take. I realise newcomers often won't realise this, and that is why this board is here, because it is so important to understand why this is so. I know no one who has fallen in love with a cavalier wants to see this breed, or any individual puppy or adult dog, suffer. Yet that is what indiscriminate breeding causes to happen.

    Any breeder carries a huge responsibility towards the breed they choose. For purebreds, you MUST understand the health issues and genetics in the breed before you even consider which dog should be bred to which. Please be aware that outward signs of health mean NOTHING regarding genes and in terms of breeding (and it saddens me to know your vet wouldn't have clearly stated this and given you proper guidance in this area, as he should know this is the case with purebred dogs! It is breeding basic) -- most of the terrible conditions you can easily pass to puppies are hidden and show up when you breed a dog from a line that carries a certain set of genes with another that contains a certain set of genes. The result can be, and often is, disastrous. No one who truly cares about any living thing would so recklessly inflict a compromised life of pain on a dog -- or on the family that loves and cherishes it and gave it a home thinking they would have a companion for many years.

    What I would recommend is to learn more about the breed and its health issues and the genetics of breeding cavaliers so that you are confident you have chosen healthy breeding stock of good pedigree and can be sure that you have done everything you can to produce healthy, happy puppies.

    The best way to get this knowledge is by getting involved with either of the recognised clubs -- CKCSC or ACKCSC -- getting to know experienced breeders, finding a knowledgeable mentor, and getting the show experience that will build your reputation and get you to the point where a breeder will be willing to co-own or sell you proper cavaliers of good lineage and healthy lines, then help guide your first breeding decisions so that you can do your very best to promote the health and welfare of the breed.

    A good place to start is to read through this section:

    http://cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2758

    Also be sure to read the items posted in the Library section of this site, especially threads in the health section.

    I hope you will, by spending time here, fall for this breed just as we have and as a result, care enough to have its future welfare as your highest priority.

    Meanwhile I will close this thread. I would ask anyone who hasn't to read the Getting Started section at the top of the board, which states very clearly that posts of this sort, about breeding in this way, are not acceptable questions to ask on this board. The reasons why are stated in the Getting Started section. But in brief -- it is because proper breeding is such a complex and detailed subject that it needs to be learned from a mentor not from posts to a discussion board.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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