rescue pups and guarding issues

[Kodee]

I've had a dog in my life since I was 5-6 years old. We never had a dog growl at us at anytime, for any reason.

Growling is not just a learned behavioural thing. Breeding has a lot to do with temperment. I'm not saying it cant be corrected and nipped in the bud. But I am saying it may be a bit more "work" for some puppies than others. Sara is very resoureful in seeking methods of correction - she will find the right one in time.

[Scouty girl]

I agree, it sounds as if Sara is already on the right track.

[Karlin]

It is again, I repeat, NORMAL for puppies to play growl. It is fine to train them not to growl when you are handling food or they think they are defending it, absolutely, but it is DANGEROUS to teach dogs they are not allowed to growl. We have had comments here before from the certified trainers on this board, which you can find if you do a search, but a growl is the key way a dog indicates it isn't happy about something. If you teach a dog it isn't allowed to growl -- which 99% of the time, is simply a polite warning and way of saying I am getting really annoyed -- the dog will stop giving warnings and go straight to biting. A polite growl between my dogs is an immediate indication that one is doing something another doesn't like and as they generally get along well together it is then just a matter of a quick assessment of the situation and defusing it -- usually, taking a toy or treat away from one who has found one somewhere.

If an adult dog is growling AT YOU and it isn't in play (Jaspar growls and 'talks' all the time when playing and it is totally harmless) -- then the problem is NOT the growling, it is what is causing the growling and why s/he is doing it at you -- which shouldn't be the case unless you are threatening the dog. This then is a separate set of training and behaviour issues, potentially very serious ones, but again *growling is not the issue*. It is simply the warning that lets you know there IS an issue.

Please don't squirt water at a young puppy to break a habit. If you search the board there are several long threads on resource guarding and what to do that offer productive alternatives. Most basic training guides for dogs give suggestions on how to manage something like growling when you are handling food. In my experience many puppies growl when they are given food (so do most kittens when small). It is just instinct -- one to politely train away from but in a *positive* way. Just taking something away doesn't teach a dog a desireable alternative behaviour. Most puppies also just grow out of growling at feeding time anyway.

Again, I strongly recommend reading Ian Dunbar's main book on puppies and behaviour because a lot of the language and assumptions being made here are 1) a mix of things that may be true about adults but you are talking about a tiny puppy -- and 2) a mix of very old theories which trainers would not even learn on most accredited course any longer (whatever about the self-styled ones, and the Hollywood glamour trainers, all those theories about alpha rolls, scruff shakes and dominance are -- as canine experts will point out -- very long discredited. They weren't even true about wolves, yet have shaped a generation of training during which time we have seen problems with aggressive dogs rise and rise. I am sure there is a direct connection ).

For example, on dominance and alpha rolls and wolves/dogs:

World renowned ethologist and writer, Dr. Erich Klinghammer, Ph.D., director of Wolf Park, Indiana and President of North American Wildlife Federation:

"... the so-called alpha roll, over practiced by some, is nonsense. The context in which people do it with dogs does not coincide with the situation in which a wolf actively submits to a high-ranking wolf. We certainly do not use it with our hand-raised wolves. There is no way we can administer the intensity of a dominance attack on a wolf that they use with each other on very rare occasions. Establishing dominance is usually a drawn out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run way a preferred strategy. If I were to go up to a hand-raised wolf that did not know me and attempt to dominate it physically, it would either run away or I would have one helluva fight on my hands - if the wolf could not get away. There is really a big difference between wolves and dogs. To simply extrapolate from wolves to dogs is at best problematical."

Or as Ian Dunbar puts it:

Like wolves, domestic dogs are social animals (and hence should not be socially isolated) and they have an hierarchical social system. However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.

Yes, most groups of male dogs generally have a surprisingly stable linear hierarchy, but females tend to show significant day-to-day variation and male-female interactions can be extremely unpredictable, with rank-reversals being the norm rather than the exception. Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't. Moreover, individual members of a domestic dog pack have special friendships, alliances and bodyguards. And truly confident top dogs are more than willing to share and even allow underdogs and buddies prime access to bones and favored sleeping places. To say one alpha male rules the roost is an oversimplification to the point of ridicule. In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.

Like wolves, dogs do need a leader - but not a dictator who physical dominates, frightens and hurts. And certainly not a human fool who tries to imitate wolves. To allow myself a soup can of anthropomorphic license, most dogs are probably howling with laughter at the pathetic wolf-impersonations by their owners. (Perhaps that's why dogs howl?) It would indeed be laughable, if the consequences were not so sad and serious. Yes, dogs must be taught to show compliance to all family members, but to suggest novice owners physically manhandle and frighten their dogs is both inane and inhumane. And how exactly are children meant to gain respect from the dog? By physically pushing and pulling it around? The very thought is as potentially dangerous as it is stupid. For goodness sake, let's wake up and smell the coffee! Or, wake up and smell the urine, if you're still bordering on virtual Lycanthropy.

A puppy at 12 weeks is not an 'alpha' trying to dominate. It is just a puppy playing with an older dog and showing some totally normal puppy behaviours (you can see that many others have posted noting very similar behaviours). The reason Kosmo does nothing when she takes his toys is that *he doesn't care*. Adult dogs are completely tolerant most of the time of puppy behaviour just as you don't turn around and slap a toddler who comes up and pushes you in play. Adults dogs let most pups get away with just about anything -- and when they push things to hard they let the pup know **with a growl** and sometimes a polite nip if the pup is really pushing it. This is excellent behaviour training from an adult to a pup and helps the puppy to learn limits of its behaviour which helps socialise it in ways people cannot do (and makes your job a lot easier). Please let them interact normally and do not worry about these kinds of interactions. As long as Kosmo has somewhere to retreat if he is really bothered, don't worry about him, he can mind himself.

An alternative way to view all this:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4515

Recommended:

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB790

[arasara]

Oh my goodness Karlin,

I don’t think you’ve read or understood a thing I’ve written..

I said I don’t mind when she growls!! She growls all the time and so does Kosmo. That’s not the problem. They growl during play – I don’t mind that. I don’t think it’s acceptable for her to growl AT somebody when they are taking something from her or Kosmo when he walked by her food. I’ve made it through the feeding issue. I am happy about that. This morning they actually ate out of the same bowl. Instead of intervening, I WATCHED them to observe their communication with each other. They just played shove and each took a bite. I generally don’t let either one touch the other’s food but I wanted to see what would happen this morning and nothing did.

I haven’t taught her she’s not allowed to growl period, I just don’t want her growling at people or freaking out if Kosmo so much as walks by her food. What I meant by “if she’s even displaying a growl” is that if she’s mad when he walks by her food now I want to try to train her away from this reaction so that later on you don’t find me on here posting “if she’s even displaying a snap.” I am simply trying to keep things from escalating.

I never said I was going to squirt her with water – I said “I don't want to make her not like water and I can guarantee you I won't have a water bottle for every time she growls so I don't think that method will work for me.”

I don’t remember saying that she is an alpha and trying to dominate. I said I don’t want her growling for small reasons so much as kosmo walking by her and definitely I don’t want her growling at humans for taking her food, ever. I don’t care if she is 12 weeks or 12 years she is not allowed to growl at humans unless we’re having play time.

I don’t intervene in anything other than things that have to do with food. I did take the squirrel toy away because it was obviously causing conflict and avi’s sister was watching them, not me. I believe I said “Kosmo refuses to stick up for himself too. He'll have a toy and she'll come and take it. He'll just let her and go get another toy, lol. Then she drops that one and goes for his other one. He seems too polite to stick up for himself. She also likes to play with him and bite his tail hair and lock on for dear life.. Kosmo ends up crying and running away from her.. I let them do their thing when they play and don't interrupt them unless Kosmo is continuously griping. He's been banished from the living room when he wants to play with her too so when she starts that up I just put him over the gate.” That implies that I let them do their own thing while they’re playing.


I had a better experience with the cow tail tonight. I gave her one and we played “can I take it?” “good girl” about 50 times during the life of that treat. I think things are going well.

Now as for disciplining I have never used any sort of methods on my dogs such as alpha rolls, water bottles, scruff shakes, or can shaking. The only way my dogs have been disciplined is by “AHH AHH” “No (fill in the blank)”, putting in an area when I just can’t take it anymore (which has only rarely happened) and for some reason it seems like if I say “Kosmo watch me” “quiet!” and he locks eye contact with me he’ll stop. I don’t use any other methods on them ~ I’ve never needed to. They’ve always been responsive to NO and AHH AHH. I was looking for reassurance that I was doing the right thing and new suggestions. I am always open to new ideas. Doesn't mean I will partake in all of them, but knowledge is power.

As for the article you posted – I have already read it – that’s why I posted on it. I will check on the book.

The point of this post was simply to get opinions and ideas ~ I am offended over some of the responses I have received. I am HUMAN. I am not perfect .. That’s why I post these kinds of things. I feel as if maybe next time I shouldn’t even bother. It's unfair that I've had to spend the last hour writing up a response to try to defend myself. I try the best I can with my dogs and although I can’t really speak for Faith as she’s too young I know I would trust Kosmo with my entire life. He’s my first dog and I’m proud of the way he’s turned out ~ he’s wonderful. I am now hoping I can do the same with Faith.

I wish to end on the note that I hope you don’t have the impression that I think Faith is a bad "puppy." She's a puppy and she does what puppies do best. She's a good puppy, really. She plays nice, she loves, gives puppy kisses, and is generally a pleasure to be with. I love her to death. There are just a few issues that arise every now and then which is to be expected with any dog. Kosmo's issue was that he was so scared of every other dog that he hid under my chair for the first 8 weeks of class.. that's right ~ EIGHT straight weeks he hid under my chair in class. I know she's going to bite me and play and this and that and I expect that. I am working with her on no biting but I understand it will keep happening as long as she continues to teeth. I have taught her to eat treats pretty while sitting down (woohoo!) and she doesn't bite me at all when I feed her little liver treats no matter how small they are now. Progress is happening - she's doing well. I realize that she has no manners right now and that I have to work to get them. That's just a puppy thing. I just don't want her growling at Kosmo for coming too close to her chewies or toys.. and most importantly I don't want her to EVER think about growling at me or any other human for that matter ~ unless we're playing of course..

[Cathy T]

Sara - I would hate to see you, or anyone else, stop asking questions. The thing to remember is that there are hundreds of people reading your questions and you're going to answers from one end of the spectrum to the other. It's up to you to sort it out and decide what works for you in your situation.

I personally don't know that I could go through puppyhood again. Okay, okay...if forced I suppose I could It's easy to forget how much work goes into those first few months. And how frustrating it can get!! Jake literally had me in tears after two weeks. I thought I had made a huge mistake. And then everything gelled. And then came Shelby. My biggest fear was protecting Jake and making sure she didn't alter his personality. That little whippersnapper's personality was set in stone...and no little 5 lb girl was gonna change it

It's natural that you would have questions when bringing a second one in. That's a huge change. Something lots of us have done, but all in varying ways. Shoot....4 years later and I'm still asking questions and looking for advice.

The thing to keep in mind about Faith is that she did not have the benefit of 10 weeks with her momma and siblings to learn how to behave. It's up to you, Avi and Kosmo to teach her. How do you teach her? Heck...I don't know...I'm not a mommy dog. That's why you ask questions.

Hang in there Sara. Once you relax and realize that Kosmo really will learn to defend himself and put her back in her place you'll forget the frustration. And heck...look at that picture of the two of them curled up together. You've only enriched their lives.

I tend to be protective of Shelby only because in human-thinking she's a girl and smaller than Jake. Not necessary If someone pesters her too much she'll whip around, stick out her chest, give a little growl and put them in their place. Dogs being dogs...they all get the message and let her be the bossy girl she is.

[Barbara Nixon]

Same here. I crate feed Teddy and usually Joly. Monty and Izzy are left fre, yet, just an hour ago, Izzy snapped at monty, who dared sniff his bowl (he should know better and this is very unusual).

We have had near battles over chews (Jumbones and Dentastix), so they are treated like food , with at least one crated and another watched over very closely. The only thing they get when loose is munch sticks, as they tend to move away to enjoy these. (excepting for Teddy, who stays by me incase I have one left and drop it) The problem only seems to be with foods which take more than a couple of minutes to eat. biscuits can be given with all free.

Food and treats are something that can turn a sweet cavalier into something resembling a rottie. At my house, they get fed separately-- we give treats separately. They HAVE learned to share me and the toys-lol, but that is all. sandy

[Karlin]

Aha -- finally found this article for any type of guarding or growling behaviour to train dogs in a positive way to give up something they have by rewarding them with something else:

http://deesdogs.com/documents/classi...esfoodbowl.pdf

[arasara]

Thanks for that article Karlin. It was very informative to me - I never thought of it that way. It's good to have different perspectives and points of view on these sorts of issues.

[Lisa_T]

It sounds like you have a spunky girl there!! I've had similar issues with both of my dogs -but especially Holly- being possessive with specific toys/treats. Since neither are possessive with those things with me (Holly will growl and try to play tug of war, but that's 'cos that's how we taught her to play in the first place!) I let them sort it out- and by now they've sorted things out for themselves.

If Amber has it, Holly barks. If Holly has it, woe betide Amber if she should pass within a metre of Holly. This is because Amber used to be a typical pup and stole everything from Holly. Holly was not particularly tolerant of this, and Amber was accordingly disciplined (by Holly). Now if Holly has something she doesn't want Amber to get, Amber will simply sit and wait for a while. Watching. She knows better than to dive for it, but I'm not worried that Holly has Amber intimidated. Amber knows better now than to hassle Holly when Holly's busy with something, but they play together very happily now. But it took time- first there was the 'What the heck did that little blighter just steal my xyz?' phase when Holly behaved like Kos it now. Then it was the 'You look at me wrong while I'm busy with this and I'll give you whatfor' phase when Amber was being taught to be polite. Now Holly will ignore Amber about 80% of the time when she has something, and Amber has learnt to back off. There are still growls and occassional snaps from Holly, but they're becoming rarer all the time.

Faith is very young, and she has personality. It's a shock getting a second puppy when you have adapted to life with a near-angelic older dog, because the pup is so different, and, as others say, the dynamics are different. You just need to give it time. I know it's worrying to see Faith growl at Kos for no apparent reason, but I bet you once Kos gets over his shock at having a baby sister inflicted on him he'll start to put Faith in her place when he thinks it's necessary.

I don't know if that helps at all...

[Kodee]

I thought of something sort of related. When I had my first daughter I developed little routines that worked. You know, one mom says do this and the next says do that. In the end each mom finds what works. But the problem was when I had my second daughter, the way I held the first, routine at bedtime for first, tricks to get in the bath etc.. did not work for the second. Eventually I clued in.. the girl was an individual and I felt like a first time mom again - had to figure out what worked for HER not what worked for her sister at that age. Try to remember, not all the little commands or tricks used to teach Kosmo will necessarily work on Faith i.e. I have read a few ways to get a dog to learn lie down. So what I am saying is the method used for Kosmo may not be the best way to teach Faith. (Boy why didnt I just start with that line and get to the point! )