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Thread: Food: Home prepared v High Quality Commercial

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathy Moon View Post
    Caraline, just one thing I thought I'd mention - this may or may not be the same Dr. Pitcairn - but I'm fairly certain that someone on this forum gave their cav garlic tablets (per a Dr. Pitcairn) and the cav got very sick. Garlic has the same chemical as onion, which causes hemolytic anemia.
    I was wondering about garlic. Though I hadn't seen it on any of the unsafe lists, I did wonder if it is related to onion & hence a problem. Having said that, many of the kibbles produced here in Australia have "with garlic" written on the front of the packets. I'm kind of erring on the cautious side at the moment & if in doubt I don't use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    How much in quantity do you feed the boxer and the cavalier?
    I ended up working this out on a calorie basis. I've got a couple of books that tell you how many calories your dog should be getting.

    Sam the 40 kilo active Boxer gets 3 - 4 cups of dinner plus some doggie biscuits & other treats through the day
    Scarlett the 29 kilo (on a diet) inactive Boxer gets 2 cups plus fruit for treats & 1 or 2 biscuits at breakfast
    Sonny the 8 kilogram Cavalier gets offered 1 cup plus treats & biscuits at breakfast
    Beau the rapidly growing Cavalier puppy woofs down 2 meals of 1/2 cup each pluse treats & biscuits at breakfast. I also up his protein intake with something extra like a bit of cheese, some egg, etc.

    I am weighing the dogs to monitor their progress at the moment. I am wanting Sam & Sonny to maintain their already healthy weights, whilst I need Scarlett to lose some & of course I'm wanting to grow the puppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by karlin View Post
    Probably the same holds for raisins/grapes -- vets say for some dogs, just a few could be toxic, but we probably all know people who have fed grapes as treats for years without any problems
    Oh yeah, I was shocked & amazed when I heard about grapes. When I was growing up we had little x-breed that loved grapes. We'd never heard that they were a problem, and she was obviously one of the ones not affected by them.

    Here is a table of calories required for a healthy, active adult dog. It is only part of a larger table from "Complete Dog Care Manual" by Dr Bruce Fogle

    Toy 5kg (11 lbs) = 210 calories
    Small 10 kg (22 lbs) = 590 calories
    Medium 20 kg (44 lbs) = 900 calories
    Large 40 kg (88 lbs) = 1680 calories
    Giant 80 kg (176 lbs) = 2800 calories

    The above calories is for the entire day & must take into account treats given. Of course it needs to be adjusted for the elderly, inactive, overweight or the rapidly growing puppy.
    Last edited by Caraline; 15th April 2007 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Addition of calorie table
    ~ Sam, Sonny & Beau ~

  2. #22
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    Caraline--thanks so much for posting all the details! I've been out of town and just saw your reply. This helps alot. I'm going to have to get creative and try this with Wrigley.

    Luckily, I found a spray that is working quite well on Wrigley's allergy sores. So I think we're making progress on that front.

    Would love to read your book reports once you read your two books!

    Thanks again!
    Denise, Wrigley (Golden-5 Yrs.) and
    Mia Bella (Cavalier-2 Yrs.)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlin View Post
    I'd recommend getting Monica Segal's book K9 Kitchen (and/or her pamphlets) for anyone trying homemeade raw or cooked or supplemented diets.
    Thanks, Karlin. I'm on Monica's yahoo group and get all the emails. I really need to get the book and give it a read to get the full picture.

    Good reminder...on to Amazon!
    Denise, Wrigley (Golden-5 Yrs.) and
    Mia Bella (Cavalier-2 Yrs.)

  4. #24
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    I must admit, I subscribed to Monica's yahoo group but only stayed on there a short while. The spotlight just seemed to be too focused on vitamins & supplements rather than just wholesome well balanced foods. I also got really irritated at all the behavioural issues (caused by people who don't train their dogs) being put down to diet & then these "special diets" being prescribed rather that addressing the real issues. Grrrr.

    As I have not read Monica's book I don't know & should not presume that it is her ethos that drives this thinking, but it sure did turn me off the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denise
    This helps alot. I'm going to have to get creative and try this with Wrigley.
    If you decide to give it a go Denise, I'd start off by selecting just 1 food item that you know is safe from each of the common food groups & stick with that for at least a couple of days, if not longer. Then when you are feeling confident that these foods are being tolerated well, then add only 1 extra ingredient and so on. What you are aiming at is to know with reasonable certainty which food if any have caused a reaction, and you can only do this if only 1 thing has been changed at a time.

    Also, schedule any additional foods to be started when there are no other changes going on. For example don't introduce a new food in the same week that say you change what shampoo you are using etc.

    You've got quite a challenge ahead of you, but I do think that by preparing your own foods you do have better control of & understand of what causes the food allergies. The problem with commercially prepared foods (& this includes human food) is that there are traces of foods sometimes not mentioned because they are so small, that they can be overlooked as a source of allergy. Also with all those chemical ingredients listed, you need a science & pharmaceutical degree to know what the hell they are talking about.
    Last edited by Caraline; 17th April 2007 at 03:52 AM.
    ~ Sam, Sonny & Beau ~

  5. #25
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    Thanks, Caraline. I'm still testing/experimenting with different protein sources with Wrigley to see what he reacts to. He seems to do well on venison and lamb right now. I'm about to add rabbit to the rotation tonight. Like I said previously, I'm putting him on a rotation of proteins that he's not allergic to in an attempt to prevent any more allergies from developing. It's all experimentation at this point--but there's really no other way to tell what the problem foods are. What does make it somewhat easier is that I can look in his ears about an hour after feeding to see if he's reacting to something. They get very warm and pink/reddish if its a problem. If I don't remove the problem food, they get worse and worse. When I take him off the food--they clear up usually in one day--two days tops.

    I don't plan to add any grains at this point because of his obvious allergy to them--but would like to add some veggies that he's not allergic to. I'm not sure which ones those are right now, though. I think he's o.k. with carrots, but seems to react to green beans. I'll probably use apple at times--he LOVES green apples.

    Anyway, thanks for the input and listening to my ramblings!

    Wish me luck!
    Denise, Wrigley (Golden-5 Yrs.) and
    Mia Bella (Cavalier-2 Yrs.)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denise G. View Post
    What does make it somewhat easier is that I can look in his ears about an hour after feeding to see if he's reacting to something. They get very warm and pink/reddish if its a problem. If I don't remove the problem food, they get worse and worse. When I take him off the food--they clear up usually in one day--two days tops.
    What handy little allergy barometers he has
    ~ Sam, Sonny & Beau ~

  7. #27
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    I've been too scared to mix in very much human food for Daisy because she has gotten bad diarrhea from boiled chicken and from ground beef (even a very small amount of ground beef). I feed her EVO, Biljac (small U.S. company no wheat or corn in their ingredients), and Purino Pro Plan Selects -- Turkey and Brown Rice. But I'm going to look at the Purina ingredients and see if it says rice protein concentrate anywhere. If it does, it's in the trash. She's not crazy about the EVO, but will deign to eat it occasionally if she's very hungry. I always sprinkle her food with either dehydrated liver powder, or dehydrated chicken powder. She's kind of spoiled in that if I don't liberally sprinkle it, she just walks away.

    I bought a bag of Solid Gold (small dog variety) when she was very small, but she didn't like it.

    She won't eat pumpkin or yogurt. She loves the chicken, but it doesn't take that much to cause explosive diarrhea. I bought some deli turkey that I'm going to add to her dogfood tonight. I know she'll like it, and hopefully it won't cause her any problems.

    I may look into NV Raw.

    It's all so worrying right now that I don't really know what to do.

  8. #28
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    Caraline, I agree; there's always the issue almost everywhere of people wanting to find the problem and the solution in anything but *training* and putting in the time to work at it -- it ain't a quick fix, it takes time and patience, and can be tedious and demanding. People like instant solutions.

    I have a large level of skepticism about supplements. Long term affects of giving animals (or people) massively larger doses of vitamins and minerals than they'd ever get in a normal healthy diet makes me reluctant to give supplements to the dogs or take many myself. We get that figure of 80% of Americans fail to get adequate nutrition from their diets cited as a reason not to 'trust' feeding human dfood to dogs... but surely the problem is the diet and improving poor food choices, not throwing a vitamin on top of the problem. Humans actually have a pretty high tolerance for a range of levels of nutrients outside the ideal, and by any global measure the Western developed world's health problems have little to do with 80% not getting enough nutrients -- instead they are due to obesity and too much food. Yet everyone runs out and spends millions on supplements to be more 'healthy'.

    Likewise I just feel a range of healthy food items that cover the nutritional bases is going to keep any dog healthy and often, healthier than highly processed foods like kibble and tinned foods. But that doesn't mean just anything thrown together -- I do think anyone home preparing food should be up on the key elements of dog nutrition because dog requirements are going to be different from human requirements. But perfectly answerable from easy to obtain ingredients.

    Allergies and their causes are really poorly understood. No one knows if or how exposure causes allergies, though it is known that allergies tend to be cultural -- Americans have a lot of peanut allergy, an allergy unknown in many other cultures. Odd!

    Chicken and beef are two meats that most commonly bother dogs that don't tolerate certain proteins. But I don't think Daisy would need to be rotated through other proteins frequently. Indeed if she has some irritable bowel problems, moving around her food a lot could cause problems -- it could well be she has food intolerances, not allergies per se. I'd consult with a vet or gastro specialist rather than guess at the best way of dealing with the problem.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  9. #29
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    Nodding with everything you said here Karlin. We are like-minds in this area for sure.

    Hey for you guys who are considering home prepared, as per Karlin's other post about the Whole Dog Journal, this month's issue is jam packed with articles on nutrition & home prepared. Starting from the April issue (which you get if you subscribe now) they are running a series of articles on home prepared.

    One of the great gems of wisdom I learned last night from reading WDJ (& was worth my subscription fee) is that you don't have to provide a balanced meal with every single meal. It is the whole sum of what you feed over the days that counts as a balanced diet. What this means is that you don't have to spend loads of time in the kitchen being the alchemist & mixing together dozens of ingredients. This certainly is a misconception I had about home prepared and I am very pleased to have had that bubble burst. So instead you just offer plenty of variety over the week & voilia! a well balanced diet

    Anyway, when I get my books on home prepared & I am a bit more educated about it, I might start up a topic on the subject for anyone who is interested. At the moment I am kind of like a driven woman on the subject.

    Karlin has already posted this elsewhere, but save you looking here is the link to Whole Dog Journal http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/
    Last edited by Caraline; 19th April 2007 at 01:29 AM.
    ~ Sam, Sonny & Beau ~

  10. #30
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    I posted this on the other thread, too, but here's some info on consulting w/ veterinary nutritionists (real vets who then did a residency in nutrition - highly trained!)

    Services run by veterinary nutritionists who run private web sites such as:
    www.balanceit.com
    www.petdiets.com,

    Also, here is the link to the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (There is a statement by the College regarding the recall as well as references to additional web links that may be of help or interest.):
    www.acvn.org
    Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
    --Roger Caras

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