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Bathtime tantrum

it seems to me a cav thing about being brushed alfie hated it to start with but know he loves it over the last couple of weeks he will show me his tummy,alltough he still is not keen for me to brush his tummy,but i am getting there.it is hard to know whats the best way when you get a puppy,we have never had a puppy ats allways been older rescue dogs.
 
Sorry have not answered posts earlier, have been away over night.
I have taken onboard all the advise given, thank you everyone.
I am using a soft baby type brush ( for puppies) on Ellie and a wide tooth comb. The tap on the nose was just a tap and wouldnt have hurt her, and I did regret it straight away.
I DO think she knows I am the boss but she is, as I have said very outgoing and I expect she will keep trying to get all her own way until one day she will just give in to me.
Somone mentioned how deep the bath was..... I bathed her in the kitchen sink and I put a rubber mat in the bottom and about 6 inches of water. I held her and talked to her gently. It really is the brush and comb she objects too. She also doesnt like me wiping her tear stains away, and I am very gentle and again I talk softly to her as I do it and always reward her when I have finished.......
She is indeed a firey red head and a real challenge but I love her to bits......
Its because I love her , that her behavour worries me and I am very aware that at her age I need to stop any bad habits.....
One last thing........when I go to her first thing in a morning, she lays on her back to be tickled in a submisive way, so her behavour is confusing. :?
 
I really, really strongly recommend people FORGET and permanently remove these two terms and every concept they associate with them from their dog vocabulary:

1) dominant
2) submissive

In general these have no real meaning for 99% of pet dog owners (and are badly misunderstand by many underinformed trainers) and are so terribly, terribly misinterpreted and misunderstood that they have probably contributed to the development of more problems with dogs in the past 6 decades than any other reason.

Do you know that dogs were successfully trained for decades -- centuries -- using MOTIVATION eg REWARDS as the norm? That this remains the gold standard of training for any sort of truly precise, demanding form of behaviour training, including trained animals in film and television, even while we jerk, slap, pin and and throttle the dogs we supposedly love dearly because of silly and long discvredited ideas about wolf pack structure that in turn is totally misapplied to dogs, which split from wolves physically and behaviourally hundreds of thousands of years ago? ? That it is only in a training 'industry' looking for quick results (and hence, class enrollments, book sales, video sales) in the past few decades that choke chains, slapping, rolls, pinning, came into vogue?

This is absolutely true. Until World War II and post WWII, when a single study on wolf life based on a domesticated and hence unrepresentative wolf pack in close confinement, rewards based trained and normal, gentle buckle collars were the norm on dogs. With the end of a world war and the rise of consumer culture and perhaps a new notion of macho masculinity, a new idea of punishment and fear based training arose and became a huge industry. And as Cathy notes, this was especially popularised by the Monks of New Skete in their books and manuals in the 80s, still widely available and very good in many, many ways. But they have *totally retracted* their viewpoint on punishment based training, especially the whole concept of alpha rolls and pinning dogs, which they think is *dangerous*.

Sadly many of the most popular TV trainers and book writers continue to popularise these methods. It makes great TV to 'resolve' a dog's problem by scaring it into the desired response in a 30 minute TV programme, often within minutes or even seconds. Great use of TV time -- you can solve LOTS of problems in 30 minutes on a couple of dogs, build your reputation and sell more books! I can say that as someone who works directly in media and knows exactly what producers want. It is more boring to watch the happy response to rewards based training and seeing the right idea click in your dog's mind and it's delight in 'getting it right'. Just like punishing a child into doing what is wanted rather than motivating him. Think back to when you were a child -- check, to your last interaction with your boss -- and think what motivated YOU.

So instead of dominance/submission, think instead of:

1) leadership
2) failing to have YET found the right way to communicate with your dog by MOTIVATING. The right way to get that message out is there!

Dogs do not have human emotions or speak 'human' very well. They are adept at learning to read our body language to some degree -- but often the signals we give them by accident are those that encourage and reward the behaviour we don;t want. Then we punish them for doing what half the time, we also encourage them to do! And therein lies most problems with training and behaviour. Not a problematical dog (these are truly, extremely rare and usually are the result of mistreatment, not temperament). But our poor communication, often at the behest of the very trainers we turn to for advice.

The reason going thru a door first 'works' in helping dog behaviour is NOT because you are showing 'dominance' and going thru the door first like a pack leader. It is simply because you are teaching a good command -- it could be ANY command -- and this helps improve dog behaviour all around. Ditto for reinforcing dogs not be on the furniture without permission, or even banning them -- all you are doing is -- perhaps for the first time -- setting up some tasks and expected behaviours for the dogs. I will guarantee you that if you instead require the dog to sit at the door and wait for permission to go thru, AHEAD of you , you will still have improved behaviour as it is the teaching of self control and polite behaviour that is effective, not some notion that the dog sees you go thru a door first, eat first, or sit higher up on the sofa than the dog and thinks, "Whoa! I guess that must be the more important dog in the house because doorways have an ancient meaning in dog ritual!". :)

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that one reason we read about so many dangerous dogs and breeds now is that people use these punishment based training techniques, especially potentially very dangerous moves like rolls and pins, on breeds that CAN have a potentially aggressive element o their personalities. Pit bulls are a prime example: this was one of the sitngle most popular family breeds of dogs prior to World War II in the UK and the US!! Helen Keller had a pit bull! They were the usual sidekick dog of film kids, like the Little Rascals. Many of our grandparents and great grandparents will have had a pit or other bull breed as the family dog. The single biggest difference between then and now is *training methods*.

I strongly recommend anyone trying to understand how to train right and train well, read Culture Clash and The Other End of the Leash, two books that give a sturdy understanding of how we can think more correctly about what are dogs are doing and why, and what we are doing and why.

Then get any of Dr Ian Dunbar's training manuals or videos. This will provide the training techniques that last a lifetime and produce a rewarding and unconfused relationship with your dog. They will help you to truly listen to and communicate with your dog, which is the basis of training well and solving any challenging behaviour.

There are many right things about many training approaches but in my book, never to anything that involves force. If you want to base your training methods on wolf or canid theory, then DO NOT USE FORCE. Wild dogs and wolves, much less dog parents, rarely ever resort to force and only in the most extreme situations, as any canid behaviourist -- REAL behaviourist who studies these animals -- will confirm. They only use force when in a direct and violent confrontation as we all should know from our own dog's behaviour with other dogs -- UNLESS a dog has a problem that has developed precisely because it doesn't interact regularly with dogs and mostly interacts with us. Most dogs interact mostly with us -- and we very often give off all the wrong signals (back to the start of the essay above! :lol:) Please note too that growling and snarls are NOT violent acts in dogs MOST of the time -- they are one of the few ways they have to *warn* -- and that is why good trainers say never to punish a dog for using this way of communication or it will only learn to stop warning and go directly to biting, in frustration. Instead, learn to understand why your dog is showing those types of behaviour -- usually there is a reason. Nipping in a puppy is a normal behaviour to either play or something it doesn't like. Yes, we need to manage it but that's by understanding why it is happening in the first place and addressing that situation then redirecting this behaviour effectively.

In the case of having a bad experience bathing a puppy, it is likely because the pup EITHER is pained by the experience -- eg something is causing it pain when brushed or put in the position of a bath, which means have the vet check the dog, and/or consider all the good advice above about ways of holding and brushing the puppy. OR it is scared/unhappy/fearful because it hasn't been gradually introduced to bathing/brushing/whatever as something rewarding and FUN. Most dogs and pups do not start out liking wither bathing or brushing. Most puppies also do NOT need brushing except with a very soft brush, by way of gently preparing them for being brushed when they get an adult coat. Hence never use a pin or wire brush on a puppy coat or even a strong bristle brush. A soft puppy brush is all that is needed for brushing sessions that go with rewards and only last 10-30 seconds at most.

It takes time and patience to train a dog from puppyhood. This is why often, an older, adult dog is a better option for many people (I have noted many times, I personally far prefer adults to puppies for just this reason -- I find puppies too exhausting and too much of a time commitment for me, though fortunately, many others love them. Someday I might opt for a puppy again but Jaspar was enough for me and I've opted for adults since). There is a good year of careful training involved in producing a happy, well behaved adult. If the relationship is not working with a puppy and the year of hard work ahead seems to daunting, then please go back and talk to the breeder about perhaps trading the puppy for an older dog or consider rehoming the puppy and then looking for an older dog. Breed rescue groups would be very happy to help with rehoming.
 
Karlin said:
I really, really strongly recommend people FORGET and permanently remove these two terms and every concept they associate with them from their dog vocabulary:

1) dominant
2) submissive

and

So instead of dominance/submission, think instead of:

1) leadership
2) failing to have YET found the right way to communicate with your dog by MOTIVATING. The right way to get that message out is there!

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
 
My two totally hated being brushed when they were puppies!!! they would wiggle and squirm like crazy!! even with this soft rubber brush i got (which i add did NO good) they couldnt stand..luckily they never ever showed any violence or made a single noise..just wriggled a lot!..however i persisted in brushing them every night without fail..and just over time they grew to accept that whether they liked it or not i was going 2 brush them...now they dont move at all...they lie on the ground patiently while i brush them and sometimes even close their eyes...

i think just be persistent and positive with it and she'll eventually learn its just easier to stay still and get it over with....well thats what worked 4 me anyway :flwr:
 
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