Is this a proper breeder?

Hi all!
I have been looking to adopt a CKC puppy for a while and I come across this website just a couple of weeks ago. The breeder is near Co. Wicklow (Ireland) and it suited us perfectly as we live nearby. So I called in, asking the usual questions. My fiance and I wanted to book an appointment to see the place, the parents and the puppies before actually sign any agreements. I asked if their place was nearby the bus stop (we don't have a car so we were using public transport to reach the breeder). She told us that their house was in the country side but she offered to bring at the bus stop some of the puppies so that we could have a look at them :shock: . I immediatly said no and we decided then to just rent a car for the following weekend and visit the breeder. Once we got there, we were very surprised on how many cavaliers they had (adults). I must have count at least 6 or 7 adults plus a couple of puppies (maybe 8/9 months old). They were all running in this enormous pen, just behind the house. I thought it was nice, considering all the space they had to run free. When they got closed to us, I noticed that they were very dirty but I consider it normal as they obviously were left outside the whole time. Next to it there was a shelter, with no windows and I must say in very poor condition :yuk: . The lady then finally came out of the house to talk to us. She never asked anything about us, were we lived and what did for living, if we ever had dogs, and so on. She informed us of the price and the avilability of the puppies as the one available when I called in had already been given away. When we said we were interested, she took a big black note book to write down our names and numbers. It was obvious, from the list of the name in that same book, that she had a big business going on . When she told us about the availability, she said that she was awaiting for a couple of litter any time soon. So I asked which dogs were expecting and she told us that they were kept in the shelter :yikes , where also all of them were put at night time or in case of rain.
I have read a lot about puppies farm and I am worried that this might be one of them.
I was wondering if any of you in Ireland has got in touch with them before and if they had experienced the same.... (for obvious reason I won't make any names, in case I am the one who is being to fussy!)
Thanks a lot for your help!

maggie said:

I have read a lot about puppies farm and I am worried that this might be one of them.

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Sounds like something along those lines or else a "backyard breeder"......WALK THE OTHER WAY if you are in the slightest concerned.....then....

can you inform your local council about this breeder, get her checked out etc? it sounds like she needs to be looked into.

When buying your puppy be as fussy as you like, you want to feel that your pup is being looked after 100% by the breeder and that you BOTH feel comfortable with each other. A good breeder should be just as interested in where her puppy is going to as you are about her and her breeding knowledge and conditions for the dogs.

With all the health problems within this breed make sure the breeder confirms with you that she is doing all the health checks like eyes, hearts and possibly SM. Ask to see all the up to date health certificates.

Good luck in your search....perhaps you might even like to think about taking a Cavalier Rescue?

Alison.

I just recently finished (about a month or 2 ago) selecting a breeder so hopefully my info will be helpful. From everything you described it certainly does not sound good. Most breeders I met had their dogs living inside the house first of all. The ckcs breed is more of an inside dog. And like the previous post if you have any kind of doubt or anything just walk away. I read in a book somewhere that you have to buy the breeder before you buy the puppy, cause what you see is what your gonna get.

But the breeder that I selected was awesome! She definently made sure I had the time and everything to take care of a dog, and she answered emails and phone calls none stop from me for the past 2 months. If this person did not even ask why or what or anything I think that raises serious doubts.

I think the most striking point though is that she offered to bring the pups and dogs outside to meet you.....Every serious and legit breeder I have met insists that I go to them cause they want you to see the dogs the house the environment cause they know it speaks for themselves. But thats just my 2 cents

Thanks a lot for your quick answers.
I will keep on looking for the proper breeder but I just need to do something about that place. I won't rest in peace until I know that those cavaliers are not mistreated

Rule of thumb...if you have to ask, you probably already know the answer Good luck in your search for the perfect breeder for you and, most important, the perfect puppy for you! :flwr: :flwr: :flwr:

i have sent you a PM

k

I think your gut is telling you the answer. My two cents: My husband and I brought our pup Charlie home two weeks ago. Our breeder had about 10 adult Cavaliers and they were raised and live in the house. I think this is fairly common for a breeder - Cavalier's are addictive! The pups were also whelped and raised in the home and well socialized. I can't express how important early socialization is. Charlie loves every human and dog he meets and we could tell right away that he had been handled and loved very much before he came home with us. That is something that is just not possible if dogs are left outside and not accustomed to human interaction and household activity. Hope this helps in your search.

Can you privately send me the name and location of the breeder? I can check if they are known to the people who track this type of breeder in Ireland. We also report such people to Revenue as they rarely are paying any taxes on their income. icon_devil I am part of a group who has lobbied for better legislation in the state on puppy farms and work with many folks in animal welfare. This would be termed a small scale puppy farm.

Were they offering you IKC registered puppies by any chance?

There are guidelines for finding a breeder in Ireland on my rescue website, www.ckcsrescue.com. The way to start is by calling the IKC breed secretary (they are all listed on the www.IKC.ie website. Do NOT buy any puppies from ANYONE listing on Buy&Sell, Donedeal.ie, or any small ads anywhere. Go only through the breed club and be aware you will still need to ask if they heart clear their dogs and if you can see their clearance certs for the parents, etc).

On buying a puppy anywhere:

Please folks, remember that just because a breeder seems nice, keeps their dogs inside (or says they do), answers questions and seems friendly, it does NOT mean they are a reputable breeder. Breeders who seem overly nice and eager to help you buy one of their puppies... that is often the first alarm bell that should ring!!

I know from speaking to those who got puppies from a woman just convicted of federal felony fraud charges in the US for selling cavalier puppies that such people can seem THE NICEST AND MOST RESPONSIBLE AND CARING PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. Why do you think they are successful? Because they make you feel good about them, and then scam YOU out of money for poor quality puppies that they sell for prices just under what a good breeder, who actually spends money doing proper health testing and truly caring for the breed, does. Lots of the WORST backyard breeders keep their dogs inside. Their websites are full of their claims to this effect! In my experience very few reputable breeders EVER say this on their websites or in person because it should be the norm for most -- and also because many DO raise cavaliers in kennels anyway and this is not necessarily problematical at all. Indeed most of the very well known names in the show world probably kennel raise many of their breeding dogs. So saying they are raised in the house -- 'with our children' is often another silly claim meant to suck you in -- is meaningless. Here is what really matters:

This is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you should get from a breeder...

1) A GUARANTEE that parents are at LEAST 2 years to 2.5 years old and are BOTH certified heart clear within 12 months of having been bred. MOST good breeders will heart-clear closer than that to a mating! You need to actually SEE the OFA certs that show the dogs are certified clear by a CARDIAC SPECIALIST.... NOT their vet.

2) Equally, you need to see the exact same certifications for the GRANDPARENTS of your prospective puppy, who should have been HEART CLEAR still at age FIVE. So that is FOUR MORE OFA HEART CERTS. Do not ever accept the breeder's word they cardiac clear their dogs. ASK FOR THE PAPERWORK.

** This is what an OFA heart cert looks like:
http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/OFAheart.JPG

You can search OFA records online here:

http://www.offa.org/search.html

If you cannot find a single dog of your breeder's affix listed on OFA, hear more alarm bells.

Also: if you cannot find a single dog of your prospective breeder's kennel affix in the online CKCS pedigree database, hear LOTS of alarm bells:

http://www.worldpedigrees.com/xCavalier.htm

3) You should be able to view similar clearances for hips, eyes and patellas for BOTH PARENTS.

4) The breeder should be actively showing their dogs or others should be showing their dogs. YOU NEED EVIDENCE OF THIS.

5) The breeder should be able to talk you through the leading health issues: especially MVD, SM, patellas, eyes -- and should NEVER say of MVD "there is none in my lines". That is the definite sign of a trash breeder because this is an impossible statement to make and they know it.

6) The breeder should be able to show the pedigrees for both parents and their MUST be champion dogs -- for either conformation (ideally, conformation in this breed), obedience, agility or similar dog sports (more appropriate for other, working breeds) -- WITHIN THE FIRST TWO TO THREE GENERATIONS. ONE champion three or four generations back is almost always the sign of a trash breeder. NO champions -- walk away. Don't even go there.

7) The breeder MUST be a member in good standing of a local/regional CKCS club and in the US, register their dogs to the AKC or CKCSC, in Canada, the CKC, in Ireland, the IKC, in the UK, the KC. Make SURE they are the REAL club registry and not any of these trash registries, which anyone could register anything with (try it!), many of which have the same or similar initials to allow trash breeders to more easily dupe YOU the puppy buyer:

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/OFAheart.JPG

If your prospective breeder fits ALL these criteria, even if s/he is a crabby SOB, then consider getting a puppy from them!!

A reputable breeder who health tests and cares about their dogs and the breed will be HAPPY to talk about health certs, his/her breeding programme, their individual philosophy, their show career, and cavaliers generally. Indeed when I went to choose Jaspar, I spent two hours and many cups of tea hearing all about the old show dogs, the key breeders in the UK and US, was shown pedigrees, shown old yearly bulletins with their show dogs in them, and was sent away with Sheila Smith's history of the breed on loan. Just TRY to get a real breeder to shut up!!! That's the sign that you have probably found a good one. :lol:



PS Oh: and I must add, no reputable breeder EVER boasts about the small size of her cavalier dam and sire, claims they produce small or teacup cavaliers, offers weights to show how small they are (usually under 13lbs, the bottom of the breed standard). :x :x This is guaranteeing they breed with NO regard for health.

NB: Sadly, almost no Irish breeders heart clear their dogs BTW and OFA tends to be for US/Canadian dogs -- but anyone in Ireland/UK should search their general database to see if your breeder's kennel name comes up as anyone who is show breeding is likely to have dogs that they or others have registered there. Also check the pedigree database -- one of the best ways of finding out if anyone has ever heard of your rpospective kennel and if they sell dogs anyone recognises as conforming to the breed. Quality breeders, even small kennels, WILL be producing show dogs and their kennel affix WILL come up in the databases. If nothing at all comes up then you probably should avoid them or else, check them out with the local or regional club.

Karlin, you covered all the bases.

Your posts raised several red flags to me as well.

I would steer clear of that one and like the other members said an investigation is probably warrented.

Don't give up hope...your breeded is out there.
It took me months and a few wrong turns (puppyfind.com)
to finally find our breeder.

Good Luck!

Karlin said:

This is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you should get from a breeder...

1) A GUARANTEE that parents are at LEAST 2 years to 2.5 years old and are BOTH certified heart clear within 12 months of having been bred. MOST good breeders will heart-clear closer than that to a mating! You need to actually SEE the OFA certs that show the dogs are certified clear by a CARDIAC SPECIALIST.... NOT their vet.

2) Equally, you need to see the exact same certifications for the GRANDPARENTS of your prospective puppy, who should have been HEART CLEAR still at age FIVE. So that is FOUR MORE OFA HEART CERTS. Do not ever accept the breeder's word they cardiac clear their dogs. ASK FOR THE PAPERWORK.

3) You should be able to view similar clearances for hips, eyes and patellas for BOTH PARENTS.

4) The breeder should be actively showing their dogs or others should be showing their dogs. YOU NEED EVIDENCE OF THIS.

5) The breeder should be able to talk you through the leading health issues: especially MVD, SM, patellas, eyes -- and should NEVER say of MVD "there is none in my lines". That is the definite sign of a trash breeder because this is an impossible statement to make and they know it.

6) The breeder should be able to show the pedigrees for both parents and their MUST be champion dogs -- for either conformation (ideally, conformation in this breed), obedience, agility or similar dog sports (more appropriate for other, working breeds) -- WITHIN THE FIRST TWO TO THREE GENERATIONS. ONE champion three or four generations back is almost always the sign of a trash breeder. NO champions -- walk away. Don't even go there.

7) The breeder MUST be a member in good standing of a local/regional CKCS club and in the US, register their dogs to the AKC or CKCSC, in Canada, the CKC, in Ireland, the IKC, in the UK, the KC. Make SURE they are the REAL club registry and not any of these trash registries, which anyone could register anything with (try it!), many of which have the same or similar initials to allow trash breeders to more easily dupe YOU the puppy buyer:

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/OFAheart.JPG

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Did all the steps and the breeder shows their dog...they are all champions. I made a list of the questions above and just sent the breeder....this was the answer I got:

If you can find a breeder in Canada that will provide you with all of these documents then I wish you well in your endeavors. I do not require these documents when purchasing a dog myself. In the 14 years that I have been breeding Cavaliers I have not encountered SM, patella issues and two of my original three Cavaliers are still alive and doing well! There is a certain amount of trust that I put towards those that I deal with as they are in this for the same reason as I am…for the love of the breed!

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HalinaBR i sent you a pm as ive also been searching in canada. i might be able to be of some assistance..maybe not? im no expert but ive defently talked to ALOT of breeders in my province..maybe all that are listed.

HalinaBR said:

Did all the steps and the breeder shows their dog...they are all champions. I made a list of the questions above and just sent the breeder....this was the answer I got:

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I'd avoid that breeder. If they are buying dogs themselves without wanting any of these things at this point, then they are a pretty appalling breeder.

The issue of having some champions within a couple of previous generations is simply a rough guide to ensuring you are not dealing with a puppy miller, backyard breeder, or someone who is just breeding to any old dogs (probably all dogs of their own breeding).

But lots of breeders with champion show dogs who use other breeder's champions at stud are to be avoided at all costs as they do not properly health test and do not bother to follow the MVD or SM protocols for breeding and will come up with this type of excuse: "I have never seen SM in my dogs for blahblahblah years" -- they sure don't MRI or they would. Simple as that. Breeders who don't lie routinely have acknowledged that about halF the dogs they scan have syrinxes (and thosE are primarily younger dogs -- if they scanned older dogs, which would provide more valuable information for their breeding programme, they'd likeLy find a higher rate affected.

NB: It's important to note you are pulling up some really old threads. Much more is known now and there are different and more specific guidelines to looking for a puppy and also far more is known about SM in particular. We have a whole set of links to guides for finding cavalier breeders/puppies on the homepage, in the column on the right.

The idea that they are only in it 'for the love of the breed' is pretty nauseating. If so, why do they care so little about its future and the health of their own puppies and the misery that can be inflicted on both dogs and families who buy their puppies that they do not even do BASIC health testing nor expect it from their breeder pals? I think they are in it for something a bit more selfish than 'the love of the breed'. :x