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Save Our Dogs campaign
- Thread starter Karlin
- Start date
Lynn
Well-known member
:flwr: Thank you so very much for this topic Karlin! It's been very interesting and has even sent me to the dictionary to find out what "brachycephalic" meant! (probably shouldn't admit that) :sl*p:
It's my sincere hope & prayer that the breeders are forced to breed for health... but I do have to ask, could the temperment of this loving breed change in the process? For me, their best quality is not how they look, it's how they act.
Again, thanks so much for this topic! :thnku:
It's my sincere hope & prayer that the breeders are forced to breed for health... but I do have to ask, could the temperment of this loving breed change in the process? For me, their best quality is not how they look, it's how they act.
Again, thanks so much for this topic! :thnku:
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Karlin,
What interesting Photos youve put on the Site,thank you so much ,and for explaining how the shorter nose of the Cavaliers,just maybe could be being involved with the SM problem
This look that many do seem to have now - a - days did start to appear in the early 80's ,when some with it were beginning to win in the Show Scene ,then it just snow-balled when other Cavalier folk saw what was happening in the Show Ring ,but has it been a terrible price to pay ,for maybe SM to have appeared around the same time.
Bet
Karlin,
What interesting Photos youve put on the Site,thank you so much ,and for explaining how the shorter nose of the Cavaliers,just maybe could be being involved with the SM problem
This look that many do seem to have now - a - days did start to appear in the early 80's ,when some with it were beginning to win in the Show Scene ,then it just snow-balled when other Cavalier folk saw what was happening in the Show Ring ,but has it been a terrible price to pay ,for maybe SM to have appeared around the same time.
Bet
Bruce H
Well-known member
Don't have much time to post, but I had to comment about size. I agree that the overall appearance is changing. In this area it seams like the judges are going more and more for the Cavaliers on the smaller end of the scale. It gets very discouraging when you sit at a show and watch very nice dogs get dumped and the first 2 or 3 placements are very small. I really think that the problem is that, in AKC, the Cavalier is in the toy group and is the largest of the toy group. The judges that are looking at them are also toy judges, so they tend to like the smaller, more petite dogs; maybe they are not even aware they are doing it. I understand a couple times in the past there have been half-hearted attempts to move the Cavalier to one of the other groups, but it never went anywhere.
The other thing I want to comment on is health, particularily SM. If there is any problem that has the potential for doing this breed in, it's SM. I truly believe now that what is needed is a LOT more research so we can better understand what we are dealing with and how to deal with it. And, naturally, research takes money, lots of money. Clare Russbridge really is on the cutting edge of SM research and I know she needs support to continue that research. I would appeal to all of you that are concerned with the future of this breed to make a contribution to Clare, through Penny Knowler. Karlin, you posted somewhere how contact Penny, maybe you could post that link again. For your donation, you will get Clare's PhD thesis in book form. It's a little technical in a couple spots (for me at least), but mostly it's a good read. It may be a cliche, but every little bit helps.
So much for my "Begging for Dollars" speech
The other thing I want to comment on is health, particularily SM. If there is any problem that has the potential for doing this breed in, it's SM. I truly believe now that what is needed is a LOT more research so we can better understand what we are dealing with and how to deal with it. And, naturally, research takes money, lots of money. Clare Russbridge really is on the cutting edge of SM research and I know she needs support to continue that research. I would appeal to all of you that are concerned with the future of this breed to make a contribution to Clare, through Penny Knowler. Karlin, you posted somewhere how contact Penny, maybe you could post that link again. For your donation, you will get Clare's PhD thesis in book form. It's a little technical in a couple spots (for me at least), but mostly it's a good read. It may be a cliche, but every little bit helps.
So much for my "Begging for Dollars" speech
Nicki
Moderator
This is very interesting discussion - thank you everyone for reading and commenting - Bruce it is especially good to hear a breeder's view.
As most of you know, SM is very significant to many of us, heartbreaking to live with, and most especially when you have to make a dreadful decision that the dog is not enjoying a good quality of life with SM
Karlin the pictures are very interesting - I do agree with your comment, that it is the artists view of the Cavalier - it's a shame that photography wasn't invented then! If you look at paintings of Cavaliers now - there is a huge variety of shapes and sizes depicted...
THe book Alison mentions is available from the Cavalier Club
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/pay/cavshop.html
I think you would need to contact them Karlin with regard to shipping to you - if it's a problem, let me know and I'll have them sent here and send them on...
As most of you know, SM is very significant to many of us, heartbreaking to live with, and most especially when you have to make a dreadful decision that the dog is not enjoying a good quality of life with SM
Karlin the pictures are very interesting - I do agree with your comment, that it is the artists view of the Cavalier - it's a shame that photography wasn't invented then! If you look at paintings of Cavaliers now - there is a huge variety of shapes and sizes depicted...
THe book Alison mentions is available from the Cavalier Club
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/pay/cavshop.html
I think you would need to contact them Karlin with regard to shipping to you - if it's a problem, let me know and I'll have them sent here and send them on...
Here is the breed standard for the marlbrough blenheim taken from my 1920's toy dog book
Head long, pointed nose, no stop indentation, flat skull not at all inclined to be domed,ears long & set high.
eyes large & rather light in colour, coat long & silky, rich tan broken over pearly white, weight 10 to 14lb
Perhaps the problem in modern dogs lays with trying to have a flat skull AND deep stop & shortened nose.
Presumably a flat skull has less room for the brain ( & perhaps the airways? our previous two cavaliers couldnt walk far withought gasping)
and If the nose is shorter & the stop deeper there is less room at the front of the skull. then if they have the Sm malformation at the back :?
Personally I like dainty cavaliers more like the papillon.As our first cavalier was.
Head long, pointed nose, no stop indentation, flat skull not at all inclined to be domed,ears long & set high.
eyes large & rather light in colour, coat long & silky, rich tan broken over pearly white, weight 10 to 14lb
Perhaps the problem in modern dogs lays with trying to have a flat skull AND deep stop & shortened nose.
Presumably a flat skull has less room for the brain ( & perhaps the airways? our previous two cavaliers couldnt walk far withought gasping)
and If the nose is shorter & the stop deeper there is less room at the front of the skull. then if they have the Sm malformation at the back :?
Personally I like dainty cavaliers more like the papillon.As our first cavalier was.
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
Nicki said:
Thanks for doing the link Nicki, :flwr:
It's the one with the red cover on it Karlin, 11th down the list.
Alison.
Just to reiterate, the domed head is actually the one that some feel is *more* not less associated with SM. Possibly smaller dogs too, in that this further miniaturises the breed with unknown side effects, but potentially creates even less room for a brain in an already too-small skull for the majority of cavaliers. This is one reason some researchers feel the move to smaller dogs is also alarming at the moment. Domed skulls also are more associated with hydrocephalus in many breeds (KC spaniels and chihuahuas amongst them). A flat skull is actually more the normal shape for a dog's skull; the attempt was to breed away from the domed skull of the KC spaniels and back towards a more normal spaniel (and dog) head (if you will).
That 1920s breed standard is fascinating -- almost nothing recognisible in today's cavalier except the flat skull and high set ears!
For people interested in donating to SM research, amounts no matter how small are deeply appreciated (lots of small donations grow quickly!). Penny and Clare are not doing hugely expensive research -- they need money to gather more MRIs from dogs they are scanning, for example. They are mostly funded through donations from people like YOU as well as occasional once-off donations from clubs and charitable trusts so every individual can make a difference.
Right now as Bruce says a reasonable donation will result in a copy of Clare's thesis, which is all her published work on SM in cavaliers, basically, as part of her PhD required having her chapters approved as standalone publications -- it was very rigorous. You can email Penny Knowler for more information, [email protected]. If you want to just send a donation of any size, simply go to PayPal, click on send money, and enter her email address which will bring up their research account.
Alison, thanks for the further book info.
That 1920s breed standard is fascinating -- almost nothing recognisible in today's cavalier except the flat skull and high set ears!
For people interested in donating to SM research, amounts no matter how small are deeply appreciated (lots of small donations grow quickly!). Penny and Clare are not doing hugely expensive research -- they need money to gather more MRIs from dogs they are scanning, for example. They are mostly funded through donations from people like YOU as well as occasional once-off donations from clubs and charitable trusts so every individual can make a difference.
Right now as Bruce says a reasonable donation will result in a copy of Clare's thesis, which is all her published work on SM in cavaliers, basically, as part of her PhD required having her chapters approved as standalone publications -- it was very rigorous. You can email Penny Knowler for more information, [email protected]. If you want to just send a donation of any size, simply go to PayPal, click on send money, and enter her email address which will bring up their research account.
Alison, thanks for the further book info.
Mom_of_2_Cavies
Well-known member
This thread has been fascinating to read through. It seems as though there could be an insidious vicious circle happening here, with dogs having to achieve "champion" status in the show ring in order to be bred for "quality," yet that very process of being shown means they are being judged by people who are only looking subjectively at form, not substance, and thereby putting all the wrong pressures on the breed itself.
Last month, acting on a recommendation I saw here on the board, I ordered Margaret Workman's book "The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel," from The Book Depository in the UK (via Amazon). In it there are a lot of wonderful pictures of Cavaliers going back to the late 1920's, and you sure can see the difference, as it evolved over the years, both in size of dog and head/snout shape.
I wish that there could be some sort of edict made that would require these dogs only be bred for health and temperament henceforth--nothing else, even if it means they are no longer shown for however many decades it takes to save them. As someone else said, I don't really give a darn about conformation for its own sake--all I care about is having a great, healthy dog.
Last month, acting on a recommendation I saw here on the board, I ordered Margaret Workman's book "The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel," from The Book Depository in the UK (via Amazon). In it there are a lot of wonderful pictures of Cavaliers going back to the late 1920's, and you sure can see the difference, as it evolved over the years, both in size of dog and head/snout shape.
I wish that there could be some sort of edict made that would require these dogs only be bred for health and temperament henceforth--nothing else, even if it means they are no longer shown for however many decades it takes to save them. As someone else said, I don't really give a darn about conformation for its own sake--all I care about is having a great, healthy dog.
Karlin said:
But is the head domed in sm cavaliers because thats how the dog is or because they have pressure in the skull making it that way ?
I'm not arguing just interested in learning :lol:
I have king charles & I don't like some of the extreme headshapes i'm seeing.
Apparently the marlbrough blenhiem still existed in the early 20th century though very rare. So why did they create a new breed rather than resurrect them? The photo that goes with the standard is of a stuffed blenhiem from the 1840's that can be seen on the natural history museum site.
Save our Dogs Campaign
Thank you Karlin ,for your latest Post .
It was so interesting to read that some Researchers feel the move to Smaller Cavaliers is also alarming at the moment
This is what Ive noticed at the recent Cavalier Championship Show ,how so many had altered since Id last been at a Cavalier Show about 15 years ago
If this is the case that Cavaliers are being Miniaturised ,and there's so many Cavaliers around now like that ,including Champions and potential Champions ,and others winning in the Show Scene ,then it should be being said that the Cavalier Breed could be in big trouble ,as never before
I really feel that the only answer ,at the moment is for Cavalie Breeders ,in order to save the Breed is to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock ,to try and discover those with a Syrinx or not
This where Mandatory Health Testing is so important ,and Cavalier Puppy Buyers ,only to buy Puppies fron Cavalier Breeders whove done this
Bet
Thank you Karlin ,for your latest Post .
It was so interesting to read that some Researchers feel the move to Smaller Cavaliers is also alarming at the moment
This is what Ive noticed at the recent Cavalier Championship Show ,how so many had altered since Id last been at a Cavalier Show about 15 years ago
If this is the case that Cavaliers are being Miniaturised ,and there's so many Cavaliers around now like that ,including Champions and potential Champions ,and others winning in the Show Scene ,then it should be being said that the Cavalier Breed could be in big trouble ,as never before
I really feel that the only answer ,at the moment is for Cavalie Breeders ,in order to save the Breed is to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock ,to try and discover those with a Syrinx or not
This where Mandatory Health Testing is so important ,and Cavalier Puppy Buyers ,only to buy Puppies fron Cavalier Breeders whove done this
Bet
I think all of the above is important too, Bet.
I think maybe my simplification of a complex subject has led to some misunderstandings.
Cavaliers do NOT have domed heads -- King Charles spaniels by contrast have a very domed head. Some cavaliers have a more rounded or domed skull than others, though, which would be expected in a breed developed from KC spaniels. Some breeders who have viewed many, many MRIs of affected dogs believethe space for the brain is MORE truncated in domed skulls because the occiput (back of skull) is shorter. The space where the brain is compressed in SM cavaliers is NOT at the top of the head (eg the dome of a domed skull)but at the base near the occiput. Most brachycephalic breeds have some compression of the brain in this area as a 'norm' (though that's not saying it should be an 'acceptable norm').
A flatter skull is actually the normal and natural shape for a dog's head, as you can see by looking at, say, a labrador or springer spaniel. Some breeders were bred to have a domed skull zand this type of skull is sometimes associated with problems with hydrocephalus (water on the brain) as well as a failure of the skull plates to close completely (considered 'normal' again in chihuhuas but usually considered a potential risk for breeds as there is literally an opening directly to the brain).
Researchers all say they have seen no correlation to an increase in SM in dogs with different shaped skulls but likewise I do not think there has been a comparison of more domed compared to flatter skulls. Breeder Laura Lang, who is quite well versed on anatomy, reading MRIs and health issues, believes she sees a distinct difference, to the extent that she is no breeding for less rounded, roomier skulls. My Jspoar, who os clear of malformation/clkear for SM, has a broader, flatter, skull. Unfortunately this is not a headshape considered desireable right now. That said it may merely be coincidence that he has this head shape and is clear/clear. Far more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn on such issues but my gut feeling is that Laura is probably right to be breeding for the head she is interested in and that she feels is healthier for the breed.
To me it appears there are many factors going into the shape of the cavalier skull and also many factors that seem to affect how the CSF flows and gets blocked in SM cavaliers. Researchers have done some preliminary MRIs with a machine that can view fluid flow over time (called cine-MRIs) and I think doing more work in this area (as well as many others of course!) will help us all to understand better what all these relationships are.
I think maybe my simplification of a complex subject has led to some misunderstandings.
Cavaliers do NOT have domed heads -- King Charles spaniels by contrast have a very domed head. Some cavaliers have a more rounded or domed skull than others, though, which would be expected in a breed developed from KC spaniels. Some breeders who have viewed many, many MRIs of affected dogs believethe space for the brain is MORE truncated in domed skulls because the occiput (back of skull) is shorter. The space where the brain is compressed in SM cavaliers is NOT at the top of the head (eg the dome of a domed skull)but at the base near the occiput. Most brachycephalic breeds have some compression of the brain in this area as a 'norm' (though that's not saying it should be an 'acceptable norm').
A flatter skull is actually the normal and natural shape for a dog's head, as you can see by looking at, say, a labrador or springer spaniel. Some breeders were bred to have a domed skull zand this type of skull is sometimes associated with problems with hydrocephalus (water on the brain) as well as a failure of the skull plates to close completely (considered 'normal' again in chihuhuas but usually considered a potential risk for breeds as there is literally an opening directly to the brain).
Researchers all say they have seen no correlation to an increase in SM in dogs with different shaped skulls but likewise I do not think there has been a comparison of more domed compared to flatter skulls. Breeder Laura Lang, who is quite well versed on anatomy, reading MRIs and health issues, believes she sees a distinct difference, to the extent that she is no breeding for less rounded, roomier skulls. My Jspoar, who os clear of malformation/clkear for SM, has a broader, flatter, skull. Unfortunately this is not a headshape considered desireable right now. That said it may merely be coincidence that he has this head shape and is clear/clear. Far more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn on such issues but my gut feeling is that Laura is probably right to be breeding for the head she is interested in and that she feels is healthier for the breed.
To me it appears there are many factors going into the shape of the cavalier skull and also many factors that seem to affect how the CSF flows and gets blocked in SM cavaliers. Researchers have done some preliminary MRIs with a machine that can view fluid flow over time (called cine-MRIs) and I think doing more work in this area (as well as many others of course!) will help us all to understand better what all these relationships are.