Im picking my CKC pup up 2moro but nervous

How can one disagree that following ETHICAL guidelines is right?

How can one disagree that if you qualify to register a dog - one can?

How can one disagree that if a breeder keeps a pup longer -- it is MORE work for the breeder?

How can risking a dogs health - in favor of needing outside socialization be good?

totally confused

WoodHaven said:

How can one disagree that following ETHICAL guidelines is right?

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Because there are situations that are not the norm, you cannot account for EVERYTHING in life when you put down guidelines. It's naive to think otherwise.

How can one disagree that if you qualify to register a dog - one can?

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I didn't.......

How can one disagree that if a breeder keeps a pup longer -- it is MORE work for the breeder?

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I didn't. :-| I never said a bad word about people who keep the puppies longer, it's a matter of choice - I believe neither are wrong.

How can risking a dogs health - in favor of needing outside socialization be good?

totally confused

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Because a dog without socialisation will more likely be put in a rescue or even PTS because of this lack of socialisation.

What I want to know is how someone who has worked alongside dogs so long can not understand how fundamental this period in a puppy's life is in defining how confident & able they are to cope with life!

Everyone is different, everyone brings up their dog different. Some people believe in negative training some positive, some think that socialisation outweighs infection risks & some don't, some like to get a puppy earlier to socialise, some prefer a breeder to socialise the puppy with a limited amount of dogs. NONE are "irresponsible". There are no right answers. The KC may claim to be correct but they aren't always as every dog owner & their dog is different. Vets may tell you one thing but medical matters are on their mind.

A pup that catches parvo will likely be DEAD. Socialization can be had in safe bits and pieces until he/she is fully vaccinated.
The rules of sevens-- tips on puppy socialization is a great example



To belong to any club -- you follow the rules or get out. It is the ethical thing to do. What could "not be the norm" be? If you start making a bunch of excuses for not following the rules, it is a slide downhill. Why not 6 weeks??? why not 5-- I figure if I home the pups at five weeks I'd save a lot of money. Luckily, I don't breed to make money.

Hmmm, that's different than over here. Way more dogs on the rescue lists here are there because they have some condition or disease the owner doesn't want to deal with than any sort of anti-social behavior.

Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

Sorry if I offended any of the experts on the board.

Following rules is not the same as being "ethical" whatsoever.

You tread across paths & outside with your filthy outdoor shoes bringing in anything bad outside inside anyway.

The minimum for a responsible owner that understands the point I am making would not go to six weeks. It is seven weeks minimum for a reason. That reason is the phase where the puppy is a great big walking sponge waiting to learn following weaning. There's only so much a young dog can learn from another young dog & it's mother compared to a new home with an older dog they don't know that can help it settle in sooner, pick up things quicker etc. I have heard many dog owners who buy dogs to do agility or whatever training they like going for a dog early as they feel this week is imperitive in getting a relationship with the dog suitable for their passion for the sport.

If you disagree, fine, but don't call people that disagree with "rules" unethical, bad or even irresponsible.

True-- very few cavaliers have been given up due to lack of socialization issues. Actually, I've seen many mill dogs (bad mills) that in the course of months have had drastic positive personality changes-- these dogs got little to no socialization for YEARS.

pinkpuppy said:

Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

Sorry if I offended any of the experts on the board.

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A puppy needs to meet big dogs, fat dogs, small dogs, thin dogs, loud dogs, quiet dogs & so on. A breeder with one breed, with small puppies do not teach as much as a variety can do.

Of course, if a person does not understand the importance of such a young age in a puppy then they should not take on the responsibility to try this as they can make it worse. I would never condone below 8 weeks for anyone other than very experienced owners & I agree that puppies over 10 weeks old are perfect for novice owners.

Does that help?

I researched socialisation issues as I got Dylan a little beyond 12 weeks. It turned out really in Dylan's favour to be with the breeder for that bit longer as he was with his litter mates, lots of older dogs and my breeders family including young grandchildren. The whole vaccine process, if all done after the dog leaves the breeder can mean a dog is somewhat restricted socially for about a month as they can't be put on the floor outside at all.

In short, if a dog is with the breeder longer, shots given as well then socialisation is done by the breeder in a safe environment.

pinkpuppy said:

Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

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:xctly:Just what I said

rowannutmeg said:

Hmmm, that's different than over here. Way more dogs on the rescue lists here are there because they have some condition or disease the owner doesn't want to deal with than any sort of anti-social behavior.

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That may be the difference between our countries then, most dogs in kennels here are there because either owners have died, the owners are neglectful or more commonly because at a year old or just younger a novice owner who knows very little realises that having a dog isn't as simple as blowing a whistle (so many think this of Border Collies - that they are born trained ).

What I have seen of rescues in the US on TV here, I would agree with your statement - rescues here are a bit different by the sounds of it..

loveisokay said:

Following rules is not the same as being "ethical" whatsoever.

You tread across paths & outside with your filthy outdoor shoes bringing in anything bad outside inside anyway.

The minimum for a responsible owner that understands the point I am making would not go to six weeks. It is seven weeks minimum for a reason. That reason is the phase where the puppy is a great big walking sponge waiting to learn following weaning. There's only so much a young dog can learn from another young dog & it's mother compared to a new home with an older dog they don't know that can help it settle in sooner, pick up things quicker etc. I have heard many dog owners who buy dogs to do agility or whatever training they like going for a dog early as they feel this week is imperitive in getting a relationship with the dog suitable for their passion for the sport.

If you disagree, fine, but don't call people that disagree with "rules" unethical, bad or even irresponsible.

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People who break the code of ethics here-- can be brought up on ethics charges-- fines and or expulsion from the club-- so yes, breaking the rules can have long term negative consequences.

No, anyone coming into the house has to follow the 'rules' here. IF you've been where there have been dogs-- you change clothes before you enter the house. If you've been to work-- take off the shoes at the bare minimum.

Cesar Milan wouldn't get a pup before 8 weeks either. My dogs are socialized by ALL my other dogs-- no mom and pups-- generations of dogs.

I don't know that anyone's saying everyone has to agree to all the rules - just that if you say you're following them, that you do. If you don't like them, don't be a part of that organization.

rowannutmeg said:

I don't know that anyone's saying everyone has to agree to all the rules - just that if you say you're following them, that you do. If you don't like them, don't be a part of that organization.

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YES!!! Exactly and in so few words!!!:rah:
By belonging to a club you are basically saying that you "share" a code of ethics. It is almost like advertising.

WoodHaven said:

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People who break the code of ethics here-- can be brought up on ethics charges-- fines and or expulsion from the club-- so yes, breaking the rules can have long term negative consequences.

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I don't doubt it. It still remains that the clubs do not account for the variety of life!

No, anyone coming into the house has to follow the 'rules' here. IF you've been where there have been dogs-- you change clothes before you enter the house. If you've been to work-- take off the shoes at the bare minimum.

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You change outside the house?

Cesar Milan wouldn't get a pup before 8 weeks either. My dogs are socialized by ALL my other dogs-- no mom and pups-- generations of dogs.

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Cesar Milan? Is that what you are comparing these people who get puppies at seven weeks to? Cesar Milan? The type I had in mind were those who clicker positive training & like to do a variety of sports with their dogs as a passion along with do dog training classes in their areas. That ain't Cesar Milan! They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find.

I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say. Generations of the same sized small well mannered, sweet natured breed do NOT count as proper socialisation. Where's the big GSD or the small Yorkie? Where's the variety?

You're right about if you don't like a club, leave it. It's just a shame that if anyone tries to do such a thing they are IMMEDIATELY shot down as a potential mill.

loveisokay said:

They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find...

...I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say.

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There is NOTHING responsible about taking a dog out who isn't covered by his shots.

In reply to the second comment, please have a bit of respect for an older (no offence Sandy) and more experienced breeder.

Loveisokay-- you are being put on moderation. There's no need to attack people or post such flippant replies to board members who are trying to hold a discussion -- much less people who know significantly more about dogs, puppies and breeding than you do, with all due respect. You will need to have your posts approved which I or the moderators will do as fast as possible as long as they are relevant and aren't deliberately provocative in such an unconstructive way. I know you like pushing people's buttons as that is clear from many of your posts over time, but this is ridiculous and not conducive to discussion on some important issues.

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On young animals -- homing puppies or kittens under seven weeks is actually ILLEGAL in many countries and US states because it is so widely accepted that it is seriously damaging to the social development of a young animal to take it from mother and littermates at this very early stage of its personality and temperament formation. Every national welfare organisation I know of firmly states this as well if you go through their materials on homing puppies or kittens. It is also against the ethics of every breed club and national kennel club to rehome dogs at this age as well. The IKC, AKC, CKCSC, ACKCSC and KC for example all state this as part of their code of breeder ethics. I cannot imagine how any ethical breeder could look at a puppy or kitten at this age and possibly believe it is mature enough to be taken from sibling and parent and placed out, unvaccinated and at risk.

Over several years of rescue work I have dealt with young and adult dogs and cats that have serious and often, unresolvable problems related *directly* to the fact that they were rehomed at too young an age. Talk to any behaviouralist and they will have instances of young dogs that needed to be pts because of this -- in particular, this is often the root probem of 1) dangerously aggressive dogs and 2) dogs that have no idea how to socially relate to other animals and frequently, people. With cats you can also get aggression or potentially serious problems like eating fabric and attempting to suckle into adulthood as they were never properly weaned by a mother (it sounds amusing but can cause very serious health issues as they often become wool or fabric eaters and die from having the threads intwine around their intestines).

One of the top priorities when we got underage puppies or kittens into rescue (eg anything under 7.5 weeks) was/is to get them immediately in with adult cats or dogs and puppies/kittens around their own age to try and prevent these problems by letting the young animal learn normal behaviours and be corrected by siblings/parent. A human can NOT fill in for this role except to a very narrow degree. You see this with orphaned zoo animals as well -- keepers always try to keep the animal socialised to other animals.

When I fostered kittens (still ocassionally do) I was lucky my two big tomcats adore kittens and happily will lie in the midst of them playing with them and correcting rude behaviour. :lotsaluv: As with puppies you can see how important this shaping is at this age and all the yelping or saying 'no' you do will not make up for that interaction -- this kind of socialisation is vastly more important than meeting people and other dogs. Indeed one reason puppies homed at 10-12 weeks are so much better behaved generally is that by this age they have lost most bite inhibition and other rude behaviours due to careful teaching from mum and reactions from siblings. Whereas if it is a human teaching this to a young puppy (under 10 weeks), this phase can go on and on and on.

My cat Ambrose was dumped at around 5 weeks in a box and when I took him the requirement was for a home with older cats and to be homed without his brother as without adult cat discipline he had become a bully to his brother and difficult generally. He was tame to humans but a wild thing behaviour-wise and here, he got plenty of discipline from my two female cats. :winkct: Thanks to this he is is a gentle and loving adult -- and a gentle 'uncle' to those foster kittens -- but retains a few strange behaviours typical of kittens pulled too young from their actual mothers.

loveisokay said:

I don't doubt it. It still remains that the clubs do not account for the variety of life!

No, they are concerned with the well being of pups


You change outside the house?

No, but I could, there is space in the garage to change



Cesar Milan? Is that what you are comparing these people who get puppies at seven weeks to? Cesar Milan? The type I had in mind were those who clicker positive training & like to do a variety of sports with their dogs as a passion along with do dog training classes in their areas. That ain't Cesar Milan! They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find.

My point was even someone who is dog knowledgeable wouldn't tempt me to break the rules.

I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say. Generations of the same sized small well mannered, sweet natured breed do NOT count as proper socialisation. Where's the big GSD or the small Yorkie? Where's the variety?

My point was waiting a couple of weeks won't make a difference. Many training clubs around here don't want pups until they are 12 weeks. I've had rescues (Amber for one, Rosie for another) who lived their lives in a crates until they was 6 years old. Talk about no socialization. IF 6 years didn't kill their spirit of adventure, I doubt 12 weeks will either.

You're right about if you don't like a club, leave it. It's just a shame that if anyone tries to do such a thing they are IMMEDIATELY shot down as a potential mill.

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"potential" byb - yes IT is one of the signs. Not the ultimate, not the worst. Remember that many people don't know what to look for, don't see the clues until too late. I am not saying wherever you got your pup from was bad. We try to help people make decisions based on ALL our collective experiences. Yours is important. I want everyone to go into cavalier ownership with their eyes wide open to the possible problems. Peace

Reading back on the original postings I see that the breeder has 4 sheds in her back garden and that when the poster went to view the litter at 5 weeks old the pups and Mum were out in one of these sheds?

This sets alarm bells off for me, as to how if at all possible, a litter of puppies can become socialised to ordinary day to day household activity even, if they are shut up in a shed in the back garden?

As for early socialisation (less than 8 weeks old) with an un-vaccinated puppy, how on earth can you possibly be certain that EVERY large, small, fat thin etc dog that the puppy meets has been vaccinated? Have you ever seen a puppy die from Parvovirus? Have you ever had to deal with this horrendous condition? Parvo VERY recently brought Birmingham Dogs Home crashing to a standstill, are you saying that for the sake of 2-3 weeks more with it's Mum and littermates and learning a very correct and natural pecking order, it is worth risking a very young puppy to possibly contracting this?? Sorry but I cannot and will not accept this!! 8 weeks old is TOO YOUNG full stop for a Cavalier puppy to leave it's momma and litter mates!

Parvo is absolutely hideous and puppies that are not vaccinated can very easily acquire it if introduced even to vaccinated dogs because the virus can live for months, remaining on grass, pavement, shoes, paws... being tracked everywhere.

When you do get it in an establishment (like a pound) there are long quarantine periods and the need for massive disinfection procedures way beyond just scrubbing the kennels -- it is so hard to kill.

It is a very cruel and often painful death for the puppies as well. At least they usually go quickly because their immune systems are so immature. They need long term intensive care treatment at a vets to make a recovery. Nothing terrifies a breedr , pound or kennel more than having parvo on the premises.