My Tommy - Rapid Breathing

Dont want to scare people but if any of my dogs in future suffer with mvd i would think twice about putting them on vetmedin as when Sam was put on it he got worst very quickly he actually only lasted about 10 days. Have since heard, though it is brilliant for the vast majority of dogs there is a % who it in fact will make matters worst and my vet thinks this was the case with Sam.
Sam had just turned 8 when he died and i really think if he had of been left on the other meds, though i know he would not be around for ever, i really believe he would be here this evening.
I could actually see him getting worst day by day on this med. Really dont wont to put people of the med but if i had of known about this i may, well at least i would have known that this could happen. But for most dogs it is the new wonder drug.

i'm so sorry that Vetmedin didn't suit Sam, but he is the only case I've heard of , where it didn't help. When Izzy started heavy breathing and panting, the vet decided to try him out and said the effects should show within a few days, but to return if he seemed worse. In fact, his breathing was only noticably faster if he lay by one of the others, within three days and when he had a relapse, a doubled dose sorted him quickly. This was especially good, as his problems cropped up during warm close weather.

I would not hesitate using it for another dog, as the benefits far outweigh the chance of an adverse reaction ; rather like innoculation in dogs and humans.

Really sorry to hear about your sad experience Sallyann - I think what concerns me most and maybe that should not be the case is these attackes he gets. His get a funny walking gait, his back leg in particular left goes limp, he almost screams in pain - it is a really loud high pitched yelping, im sure last time he has problems with bowels and urine control, he seems to lay on the kitchen floor ususally, not sure why that is the case. Its been 6 months since the last one but each gets worse and the last one lasted 4 weeks although he was not in severe pain the entire 4 weeks, It peaked in the last week of the 4. I am trying to get to the bottom of it so that if another attack happens it is managed better because during that entire time they could never say what it was! He is approaching 8 so i know surgery is out of the question. Its mind boggling to me

p.s. and sadly I got Tommy before I knew anything of the bread, I was very ignorant to purchasing a puppy, He was the brother to my Tilly but from a different litter and i got Tilly at 8 months so i knew NOTHING and have learned the hard way. I have since found out that Tommy who was one of 5 in his litter is only 2 of 5 still alive. They ALL suffered problems that were never "sorted" by vets. So as Karlin and many others have said PLEASE be careful in selecting a puppy, i can see now I have/had added to a growing problem with the breed. It was not intentional but a mistake made out of ignorance - unexcusable all the same

Don't beat yourself up about this. Most of us were ignorant at some stage. Hundreds of owners of breeds are ignorant about their problems, because , many many think that a pedigree or kc registration means good breeding. you know, I think more people are ignorance of their breeds problems, than those who are informed. before the internet, there were few ways of finding out, until you , unfortunately got experience.

Hello - Just to let you know Tommy was with the vet this morning. She specializes in heart problems and felt Tommy's murmour would be graded a 4. She said previous xrays showed Tommys heart was "rounded" and we moved on to others things before I could as was "rounded" a normal heart or an abnormality. She has put Tommy on Frusemide and Vasotop. She did explain both meds in detail but I did not retain that information!! She is seeing him again in 2 weeks to discuss meds and my concerns about SM. Just on another note Tommy has always been a rascal when out on the lead - he barks at every animal that he sees and is terrible in the vet as you can imagine! But today he went a bit further and actually went to nip a retriver. He was on the lead so I was able to pull him back but he did catch her slightly but if I hadnt pulled him back god knows!! I was HORRIFIED - he has NEVER expressed an aggressive behaviour before and I am dreading the next vet visit! Any suggestions about all of the above? Thanks so much

A 4 is pretty far advanced I am afraid (5 in the worst on a 1-5 scale). A rounded heart means it is enlarged so he is going towards congestive heart failure. I would definitely get him on proper meds which should help this a lot. With the right treatment, kept in lean weight, an MVD dog can continue on for quite a while, even a few years.

There's a lot of detailed info here: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=9214

If he is snapping while on lead in the vets it is better to keep him very close to you or bring him in a crate. He may be snapping because he is uncomfortable or in pain. You do NOT want to risk a bite though -- another owner can ask that a dog be confiscated and euthenised for biting and so it is better to be very safe if you know he has become a bit reactive. Some dogs are very anxious in small spaces on leads and this can make them reactive when they normally aren't. Also this can be made worse simply by being at the vets, which is a place that makes many dogs extra worried or fearful.

PS I would really change from your regular vets if they never explained any of these key points to you and never had put him on medications even with an enlarged heart! They work for you after all and you need to understand your dog's health status, not have it be some secret only they know about.

Vets here use a scale of 1 to 6 for murmurs.

Odd you should mention unusual snapping, but , in his last two years, izzy got untrustworthy. He never really liked Joly, but tolerated him and growled if he overstepped the mark. However, in his last two years, he did, on several occasions attack and really hold onto Joly, should he yelp for any reason . He also bit, laid back Monty twice, when he yelped. The vet could find no pyysical reason for this behaviour, but did say that some dogs do , unaccountably change like this, being intolerant of other dogs' yelping.Izzy did scratch his ears a lot and the old vet used to give meds anyway, but the new one said there was nothing wrong with his ears and that he could have very mild sm, which was of little consequence , compared to his severe heart condition (ie off the scale).

Thanks Karlin - Apparently the rounded heart was picked up last July when he had this yelping, pain episode in July. In xray was taken because of that but they xray the heart at the same time and NOTHING was mentioned to me! I am horrified and I am changing vets and I am also asking for an explanation from the vet practice I have been using.
Tommy has always whined and barked at the vet but he has never nipped. I will from now on crate him because i cant take the chance. He nipped the retriever on her lip. The retriever owner was ok about it but that really is beside the point. I really cant get my head around WHY they did not deem it important to tell me he had an enlarged heart, serious mumour, and no meds! It is beyond belief!

Barbara - thats interesting because Tommy certainly has not been so tolerant the past 18 months. My little boy, 4 now, is often growled off. Tommy has never gone for him but he will growl at things he used to love or at least accept!! All I can do now is keep him comfortable, really for the most part he seems a happy chap ,

Well, vets are pretty poor generally at getting grades right. And the condition can advance quickly meaning the grade may have been much lower at the time of the x-ray. But I don't understand why the vet wouldn't have explained what was on the xray to you. Also many simply treat MVD like some minor thing that 'can't be helped'. I hear *all the time* of Irish vets who just do nothing for dogs that are in obvious heart failure -- to the point where even I could diagnose them! Yet not a single medication was given. I know two cases where dogs were sent home in distress finally being given a new prescription to start that DAY for heart meds and died the same day at home, leaving a very distraught owner whose experience would have been much better had the dog been allowed to quietly pass away at the surgery and of course, if the vet had started treatment to at least ease the dog's discomfort and hopefully, extend life and quality of life many months earlier.

I am really not sure why some take this approach, as if there has been no advancement since the 1950s in the understanding of this by now very well studied condition. Many owners not wish to go the way of lots of blood tests and lots of monitoring but at the very least their vet should be tracking this condition with them and keeping them well informed of what happens with MVD and how it progresses and what can be done, when. The link above and that write-up by PatB really show how much IS understood about MVD and the many approaches that can be taken.

Thanks Barbara for the grading clarification. I know vets can also use a 1-5 or a 1-6 (or is it 1-4?) scale for patellas too! Making it more confusing...

Just to let all the followed this thread that Tommy has been on heart tablets for nearly two weeks now. He is back to vet on tuesday. Tommy does not seem much different but maybe tablets take time to take effect? I timed his breathing last night and it was just over 70 beats in just one minute! Not sure what it should be but my Pebbles and Tilly both timed between 17-20 beats per minute SO Tommy is breathing over 3 times faster. The last few days I have noticed panting in addition to the fast breathing, Thankfully he is still happy, eating well. I sit and look at him on the sofa and you can see the heart beating by just looking at his stomach. after about 30 beats it acutally seems to stop for a second or two then starts up fast again, I seem to live in fear with him at the moment

Vetmedin , in Izzy's case, wqs quite quick acting (about 3 days) but Fortekor took longer.

I feel for you about living on a knife edge, because I went through that with Izzy , who died almost a year ago.

So sorry about that Barbara, Did you sit and wonder - watch and wait? I hope I will be waiting some time

Oh yes. I twice went to the vet thinking this was it (he was having trouble breathing) and each time, though, they had something extra to try.

OK head out of sand. it looks like we're off again. Monty has been coughing, just one hack, most mornings, since before Christams and I know , in my innermost, that it is not because he is licking his rude parts or paws clean (Though making himself cough this way has not been uncommon and Teddy did the same when he was madly licking , due to his allergy).

Monty was 12 in November and has had a mumur for years (middling back in the summer), but no symptoms until now, so I'm going to book him in to see the head of our vet practice.

Im so sorry to hear that Barbara, my fingers crossed for you. Do let us know how you get on.
Thinking of you x

fingers crossed for Tommy and Monty too.

oh Barbara so sorry to hear this - keep us posted on how Monty is doing once you've been to the vets...

Bless you Barbara. We are thinking of you and Monty and sending you happy thoughts!!! Please let us know how you get on. :luv:

Tommy update - He saw vet today, they stopped heart meds for two weeks because it wasnt making any difference and they want to see how he goes in the mean time (2 weeks) Apparently he is having a lot of pain in the back end. She did anal examination and is prostrate is enlarged, now coming back to an older problem of 18 months ago! We have been going in circles so he is now being referred to specialist to look at heart and prostrate. Waiting for a phone call from the vet this afternoon. Appt should be next week. In mean I have made sure my son stays away from him and does not pester him. He is still eating well and wagging his tail but not himself! I really hope I will soon have some answers even if costly! He is sleeping at the moment which he does lots of lately.