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Tri facial markings
- Thread starter tinkertime
- Start date
tinkertime
Member
Thanks for the tips on posting pictures. I've never done anything like that and it's always fun to learn new things.
I am a little nervous and I read about the breeder in Washington state. I live close to Washington and I will definitely be careful.
As for selling me a female tri, I guess I just considered myself lucky to find this breeder because, like you said, no one was willing to sell me a female with breeding rights. She doesn't show herself, but she has dogs of champion lines. Her male is from the Sheeba line which I'm a big fan of.
Anyway, thanks for all your help. After all this she probably sold it because I've been hesitating for two days. I guess there's just too many red flags!
-Theresa
I am a little nervous and I read about the breeder in Washington state. I live close to Washington and I will definitely be careful.
As for selling me a female tri, I guess I just considered myself lucky to find this breeder because, like you said, no one was willing to sell me a female with breeding rights. She doesn't show herself, but she has dogs of champion lines. Her male is from the Sheeba line which I'm a big fan of.
Anyway, thanks for all your help. After all this she probably sold it because I've been hesitating for two days. I guess there's just too many red flags!
-Theresa
Daisy's Mom
Well-known member
Good luck to you -- you are right to be careful and it sounds like you are appropriately skeptical and will ask the right questions.
BTW, our Daisy is from a Sheeba sire -- Sheeba Harry Potter. We think she's perfect, of course, because we love her to pieces. Her blaze is asymmetrical, too, but much more dramatically so than the little girl you are considering. I don't know if you can tell from my little picture of Daisy, but one side of her blaze goes straight back and the other side makes a fairly sharp angle over her right eye. We bought her as a pet, of course and she is spayed. She's also got 5 little perfectly spaced freckles around her nose.
I'm sure if I ever tried to get into showing and pick out a real show potential puppy, I'd just pick the one that was prettiest to me and I'd get nowhere! I think they are all so beautiful and I love the feminine faces, like Alrene Henrietta (sp?). I think she is the most gorgeous dog I've ever seen. I've only seen pictures, but they just blow me away. She apparently has a whole lot going for her than just that gorgeous face because she does so well in the show ring.
BTW, our Daisy is from a Sheeba sire -- Sheeba Harry Potter. We think she's perfect, of course, because we love her to pieces. Her blaze is asymmetrical, too, but much more dramatically so than the little girl you are considering. I don't know if you can tell from my little picture of Daisy, but one side of her blaze goes straight back and the other side makes a fairly sharp angle over her right eye. We bought her as a pet, of course and she is spayed. She's also got 5 little perfectly spaced freckles around her nose.
I'm sure if I ever tried to get into showing and pick out a real show potential puppy, I'd just pick the one that was prettiest to me and I'd get nowhere! I think they are all so beautiful and I love the feminine faces, like Alrene Henrietta (sp?). I think she is the most gorgeous dog I've ever seen. I've only seen pictures, but they just blow me away. She apparently has a whole lot going for her than just that gorgeous face because she does so well in the show ring.
Cathryn
Well-known member
Can I interrupt your thread and ask why it is so difficult to get a tri girl?
Is it just difficult to get a "show" tri girl with all the right markings or just difficult to get a tri girl full stop?
Because basically it is the hardest of all the four colours to get right! I have tried and tried to get a well broken Tri girl, I came close a couple of times but sadly the pups were stillborn
Basically I have 3 Tri girls here, one is beautifully broken on her non show side (Right hand side) and totally black on her show side (Left hand side) I did show her a few times (Just turned her around) but the judges will always ask you to turn them the right way around to see what you are "hiding" :rotfl:The other 2 girls are very heavily marked but nicely made so they have been kept for breeding and will be mated to well broken Blenheims with the HOPE that there might, just might, be a well broken Tri-Girl in there that I can show. :xfngr:
Basically a Tri-colour bitch be she a show potential puppy or merely being kept to breed on with is literally worth her weight in gold potentially!! Many breeders will keep a less than perfectly marked bitch who is otherwise sound to breed on with, whereas a Dog puppy has to be totally right or you won't use him at stud this is why it is so much easier to buy a dog puppy over a bitch puppy!!
Sorry this is so long winded!!
As for the "symetrical head markings", personnally markings are the last thing I look for, if the dog is soundly built and moves well, has a happy and outgoing temperament THEN I look at markings, one of my favourite Tri-colour champion bitches here in the UK was Lorraine Hughes's stunning Champion Loranka's Melting Moments, her blaze was totally askew, if you were going on markings alone she would have been sold as a pet, yet her overall quality was such that she was shown very successfully indeed, she is behind many dogs these days!
Markings for me are a very personnal thing, I like my boys more heavily marked and my girls more broken up, I'm not fussy about the Blenheim Lozenge yet most of mine have one!!
I could go on forever truly I could, but this is just this particular person/breeder/exhibitor's PERSONNAL view is all!
ice-cavi
Well-known member
Thanx for explaining all this cathryn
I have a tri girl myself and was a bit scared of showing her since she has almost NO blaze.However she is very well broken and moves very nicely.
I showed her and she came in 4 wich totally came as a huge surprise.The judge was Mrs Carolyne Akroyd-Gibson of Toraylac .I believe she knows very well what she is doing when judging.
So my point is I would'nt be too concerned about the blaze not being 100% perfect,there are so many other things far more important :Coat,movements,body, bone,temperement ,size,bite, etc.
Good luck in finding Your tri
Mine is soooo far from being perfect but as a breeder once told me: you don´t by a champion, you make it yourself.Your goal should be to get the best "ingridients" to start with and then you should try and improve that yourself.
I have a tri girl myself and was a bit scared of showing her since she has almost NO blaze.However she is very well broken and moves very nicely.
I showed her and she came in 4 wich totally came as a huge surprise.The judge was Mrs Carolyne Akroyd-Gibson of Toraylac .I believe she knows very well what she is doing when judging.
So my point is I would'nt be too concerned about the blaze not being 100% perfect,there are so many other things far more important :Coat,movements,body, bone,temperement ,size,bite, etc.
Good luck in finding Your tri
Mine is soooo far from being perfect but as a breeder once told me: you don´t by a champion, you make it yourself.Your goal should be to get the best "ingridients" to start with and then you should try and improve that yourself.
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Nancy
Well-known member
If you're still thinking of getting her, please don't gloss over the testing of parents aspect. Almost every puppy from good and bad breeders can be linked to Champion lineage along the way. If your breeder doesn't show, then how would they recognize show potential? Please have them take more pictures, if they are selling her for more than a pet puppy, then you have the right to ask for them to do a little more for you.
Cathryn
Well-known member
Thanx for explaining all this cathryn
I have a tri girl myself and was a bit scared of showing her since she has almost NO blaze.However she is very well broken and moves very nicely.
I showed her and she came in 4 wich totally came as a huge surprise.The judge was Mrs Carolyne Akroyd-Gibson of Toraylac .I believe she knows very well what she is doing when judging.
So my point is I would'nt be too concerned about the blaze not being 100% perfect,there are so many other things far more important :Coat,movements,body, bone,temperement ,size,bite, etc.
Good luck in finding Your tri
The judge is a VERY good friend of mine and started me off with my first really good dog many years back, I agree 100% that she knows her stuff as she has taught me much of what I know too!! icon_whistling
Cathryn
Well-known member
Very good point Nancy!! If you are paying a lot for her then they should be prepared to go every single little thing be it good or bad with you no matter how many questions you ask of them!
*Pauline*
Well-known member
Has this breeder offered you breeding rights? No good breeder would do this. Alarm bells ringing here.
ice-cavi
Well-known member
Thank you.She has a very nice pedigree but she was bought meerely because I wanted a friend for my older one (and myself).
Cavalli CKCS
Well-known member
Some do, I mean, they have to.....how else would people continue a line?
It's not very fair to say no good breeder will do this, I dont really know do you mean show breeder or pet breeder?
Evan
Does her breeder/s show?
Cathryn
Well-known member
Evan, I believe this member is based in the U.S, I believe the Sheeba line is from there?? (Quickly Google's "Sheeba", Yes they are in the U.S) The American way of doing things is very different indeed to the UK way!! As I am sure you already know??
tinkertime
Member
Almost all the breeders I've been in contact with here (in the US) would only offer us a puppy with a spay/neuter contract. This breeder has champion males but doesn't show herself because she "doesn't like the atmosphere/politics" of showing. She loves the idea of us showing.
I never realized that female tris were so difficult to come by! It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem here-at least in the Northwest.
I never realized that female tris were so difficult to come by! It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem here-at least in the Northwest.
Cavalli CKCS
Well-known member
Ok, the reason why all the breeders you contacted wouldn't allow you a dog with breeding rights is because... they are responsible, reputable breeders. I would be shocked if anyone were selling puppies on open registration without some connection professionally to the buyer -- either they are being mentored by the breeder who also shows, or by another breeder who shows.
I would NEVER get a puppy from someone who doesn't even show -- and is also promoting her puppies as potential show quality. This is classic, classic scam breeder talk.
Almost every single cavalier no matter the background goes back to champion lines. This too is the classic line of a backyard breeder or a mass breeder for the pet market.
Please don;t give money to this type of person, or if you are determined, at least get someone within the regional club to give an opinion on the breeder and the puppy. Otherwise you are simply throwing money away.
The way to get involved in showing in any breed is to first get involved with the local clubs, go to shows, get to know breeders, find a mentor, and build up the level of trust any reputable responsible breeder would want to have with a buyer before selling a puppy on open registration.
One thing I really do not understand about UK and Irish breeders -- and it annoys me so damn much I don't care if I offend those of you on the board on this point because I am tired of talking about the importance of responsible breeding and watching breeders here sell puppies that you KNOW are at risk of being bred: WHY do you sell puppies on open registration? And if you also don't sell on spay neuter contracts, how do you know your puppies are not being bred to the crappy dog down the street? And if you feel others should have the right to breed for a puppy market, then don't you feel you have a significant role in the serious breed health problems in the breed that pet owners ands breed rescue people like ME have to pay to fix? And have to sort, on my personal time, the poorly bred, MVD-riddled rescue dogs with health problems that lack of controlled registration and spay/neuter contracts produces? How many dogs with serious MVD that are age 3 or 5 or 7 have you ever personally tried to place into rescue homes, instead of the cute fluffy puppies that are easy to home? I am so sick and tired of having every single Irish cavalier I take to the vets that is over 5 (and I have now had two three year old cavaliers too!) show a heart murmur, often over grade 3 Sam, nowin foster, is age 5 and has a grade 5 murmur. Obie was grade 5. Tandy, grade 3-4 and she was only 3. Sam with Eileen, grade 5-6, age 6. Another Sam that went to Mary, grade 5, age 5. Two dogs I homed last month, grade 3, age 4 and 5. I am convinced the Irish lines are the absolute worst with heart murmurs in any geographic area, because so many of my older rescues have murmurs and I have found it nearly impossible to find club breeders who bother with the heart protocol and the UK isn't much better -- despite Simon Swift's protestations for a DECADE, the club still feels vet heart checks are fine. I know of senior club members recommending puppies from parents not hear tested, breeding underaged dogs (they are supposed to be at least TWO) because 'they know the lines'. :sl*p:
What is the point of people like me working hard to encourage people to only buy from responsible health focused breeders when the same Irish and UK breeders go right on selling intact, open reg puppies that anyone can go breed -- and 99.999% of those pet owners breeding to earn a bit of money off their dog are breeding blindly, no health testing, and further spread MVD -- and now, SM -- in this breed. Much less dry eye/curly coat, bad patellas, hip problems and all the rest that comes up in the rescues I try to sort.
Don't you want to place more control over what happens to the breed as a whole, even if you are willing to risk your dogs being bred by just anyone? Anyone in rescue, any pet owner can confirm that breeders must be crazy of they think their open registration, intact dogs don't get bred by pet owners.
Having had a rash of MVD dogs lately, and having more to sort this coming week while I also try to do a full time job, I'd like some answers from the people who as far as I can see, help create the problem in the first place.
I would NEVER get a puppy from someone who doesn't even show -- and is also promoting her puppies as potential show quality. This is classic, classic scam breeder talk.
Almost every single cavalier no matter the background goes back to champion lines. This too is the classic line of a backyard breeder or a mass breeder for the pet market.
Please don;t give money to this type of person, or if you are determined, at least get someone within the regional club to give an opinion on the breeder and the puppy. Otherwise you are simply throwing money away.
The way to get involved in showing in any breed is to first get involved with the local clubs, go to shows, get to know breeders, find a mentor, and build up the level of trust any reputable responsible breeder would want to have with a buyer before selling a puppy on open registration.
One thing I really do not understand about UK and Irish breeders
-- and it annoys me so damn much I don't care if I offend those of you on the board on this point because I am tired of talking about the importance of responsible breeding and watching breeders here sell puppies that you KNOW are at risk of being bred: WHY do you sell puppies on open registration? And if you also don't sell on spay neuter contracts, how do you know your puppies are not being bred to the crappy dog down the street? And if you feel others should have the right to breed for a puppy market, then don't you feel you have a significant role in the serious breed health problems in the breed that pet owners ands breed rescue people like ME have to pay to fix? And have to sort, on my personal time, the poorly bred, MVD-riddled rescue dogs with health problems that lack of controlled registration and spay/neuter contracts produces? How many dogs with serious MVD that are age 3 or 5 or 7 have you ever personally tried to place into rescue homes, instead of the cute fluffy puppies that are easy to home? I am so sick and tired of having every single Irish cavalier I take to the vets that is over 5 (and I have now had two three year old cavaliers too!) show a heart murmur, often over grade 3 Sam, nowin foster, is age 5 and has a grade 5 murmur. Obie was grade 5. Tandy, grade 3-4 and she was only 3. Sam with Eileen, grade 5-6, age 6. Another Sam that went to Mary, grade 5, age 5. Two dogs I homed last month, grade 3, age 4 and 5. I am convinced the Irish lines are the absolute worst with heart murmurs in any geographic area, because so many of my older rescues have murmurs and I have found it nearly impossible to find club breeders who bother with the heart protocol and the UK isn't much better -- despite Simon Swift's protestations for a DECADE, the club still feels vet heart checks are fine. I know of senior club members recommending puppies from parents not hear tested, breeding underaged dogs (they are supposed to be at least TWO) because 'they know the lines'. :sl*p:What is the point of people like me working hard to encourage people to only buy from responsible health focused breeders when the same Irish and UK breeders go right on selling intact, open reg puppies that anyone can go breed -- and 99.999% of those pet owners breeding to earn a bit of money off their dog are breeding blindly, no health testing, and further spread MVD -- and now, SM -- in this breed. Much less dry eye/curly coat, bad patellas, hip problems and all the rest that comes up in the rescues I try to sort.
Don't you want to place more control over what happens to the breed as a whole, even if you are willing to risk your dogs being bred by just anyone? Anyone in rescue, any pet owner can confirm that breeders must be crazy of they think their open registration, intact dogs don't get bred by pet owners.
Having had a rash of MVD dogs lately, and having more to sort this coming week while I also try to do a full time job, I'd like some answers from the people who as far as I can see, help create the problem in the first place.