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Thread: black and tan cavalier

  1. #1
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    Question black and tan cavalier

    while out looking at a litter recently i came across and female black and tan i year old for sale the breeder said she was for sale as he was getting out of black and tans 250 euros for her with papers he also had several littters of pups for sale without papers he said most would be going to uk i did not buy a puppy but since have been thinking of the one yearl old and worrying where she will end up as she is not neutered i have been thinking of buying her what do you all think my husband thinks giving him money with only encourage him to continue what do you alll think has anybody else here bought a cavalier to save her from a possible worst fate

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    Moving this from the rescue section as it is only for rescue dogs, not for dogs that might be purchased. I will move this to the general section as basically, you are asking about whether to buy a dog.

    Lots of breeders rehome breeding dogs -- often they simply go to pet homes. If you want another dog, and like this one, then buy her. If you don't want another dog, then it really does not rescue the dog to buy her from a puppy farmer in this way. I will buy dogs if they are in a very bad way or are very cheap or are at risk but this is not a dog known to be at any risk, so a purchase is really a private decision for you. Sadly many people rehome intact dogs without giving a thought to whether they will be bred from; this includes the majority of rehomings every day of pet dogs in the UK and Ireland from what I come across online and in papers.

    However, I would not go near a breeder selling puppies in this way -- he is definitely a puppy farmer; the fact that he sends all his puppies to the UK underlines this. Only ever buy from reputable show breeders who have the cardiac certs and other tests they can SHOW you. Papers mean absolutely *zilch*! There's good advice on finding a puppy and screening breeders in the Library section or on www.ckcsrescue.com.

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    This is exactly how i got my b&t male. There was a BYB that had a litter of B&T's and found out the hard way that they do not sell. At the time, I was looking for a young adult to adopt but kept running into dead ends. So, I called the lady. I went and looked at the 5 MO pups and brought him home. Their house was lovely and she kept them well, so I felt pretty good about it. Luckily, she was being very selective about who she placed them with- which is a good thing b/c she was practically giving them away. I'm sure she expected to have a tri litter and make some money, but that didn't happen and she has since spayed her bitch.
    Trisha in Southwest Florida
    Cavaliers: Casey, Ollie, & Winston and usually a foster or two! Cats: Pebbles & Benson

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    If there are no health certs for the breeding stock, and the parents and grandparents haven't been cardiologist tested, and the parents are (typically) under 5 and therefore well outside the MVD protocol, it doesn't matter how nice a house is kept or how nice the breeders seems to be -- they are knowingly and willingly damaging the breed and selling on puppies at far higher risk of longterm health problems. Also BYBs often actually keep the dogs in poor conditions and bring them inside for 'viewings' to make them look like decent breeder. On no level, are they OK breeders.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

    Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.
    Trisha in Southwest Florida
    Cavaliers: Casey, Ollie, & Winston and usually a foster or two! Cats: Pebbles & Benson

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    I'd say that a BYB is harming the breed (whether knowingly or unknowingly) and leave it at that.

    If they're not doing the proper health testing and breeding protocols, then they are harming the breed. And if they're not breeding for show, they probably are not breeding structurally sound dogs that meet the breed standard, plain and simple.

    Anyone who is breeding cavaliers for the sole purpose of augmenting their income is harming the breed.

    If they have no consciousness about what they are doing, it doesn't make what they are doing right. We had a 2 year old BYB rescue dog who was PTS because of severe health problems. The BYB never cared to know what happened to him.
    Cathy Moon
    India(tri-F) Geordie(blen-M)Chocolate(b&t-F)Charlie(at the bridge)

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    Default heart testing

    as far as i am aware at the moment the ckcs club of southern ireland does not require there members to heart test there breeding stock the only requirement for registering any litter with them is two years membership leaving people in southern ireland with very little chance of aquiring a puppy from a healthy background it is no wonder people end up buying puppies from back yard breeders it is aprox 650 euro for a club members puppy with no heatlh testing currently required of them and therefore no real incentive to pay the extra money required on what basis can the extra cost be justified with many of the members not even showing their dogs they are able to charge the extra money because they are members of the club for two years

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    Quote Originally Posted by chloe92us View Post
    I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

    Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.
    Don't worry Chloe. I understand where you are coming from and feel the same way.

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    Anyone who has spent 5 minutes researching the breed knows about the hideous problem of MVD in the breed. Anyone therefore who chooses NOT to cardiologist certify their dogs and follow the MVD protocol has chosen to harm the breed. It is that simple. If YOU know about MVD, how can a *breeder* not know? How can they look at the pupies they produce and know they are risking placing a terribly sad burden on a family that may lose that dog at 5 or 6 due to their deliberate choices?

    The breed is in serious trouble of survival already due to MVD. Breeders of any kind who ignore what they KNOW is right to do are destroying the breed. Or are so ignorant that they either have willfully chosen not to do, or to ignore, the most basic common sense about breeding and neglected to do the most basic and minimal research on the breed they've chosen.

    It is impossible for anyone who buys a SINGLE book on cavaliers, visits a SINGLE club website, reads a board, basically just googles the breed, not to learn within minutes about the problem of MVD.

    If pet owners were more careful in what they expect from a breeder, and less focused on getting a cheaper puppy or a puppy this week because they don;t want to wait, the breed would be in far better condition. Pet owners have enormous power, as what they ask for and expect and *demand* will shape the puppy market. I cannot stress this enough -- the problem is NOT simply poor breeders, folks, it is also US -- it is pet owners who just do not care if they can get their dog cheaper or more easily then supporting the breeders who DO health test and do breed so that you end up with a cavalier that actually looks like the breed should look. If you buy from these people, YOU are supporting the sad exploitative cycle that has already demolished the gene pool to dangerous levels. Every single cavalier owner or prospective owner has the ability to make a major and powerful contribution to the breed and its future simply by buying puppies ONLY from reputable breeders who health test properly (not just vet heart checks!).

    There is only one breed club to my knowledge in the world that REQUIRES heart testing and that is Sweden's. What a club requires isn't the issue, though. What people demand in terms of care that goes into the breeding process, and are willing to pay for, does. There are breeders in every country who breed well. Finding them takes time and careful work. Just as finding anything of quality takes time and work and effort and rarely provides instant, cheap gratification (in the case of poorly bred puppies, that low cost up front has a high longterm cost for the breed and presents an increasingly impossible scenario for ever breeding out these serious, formidible health problems that shorten our breed's average life expectancy already by a fourth to a third!).

    Buying unhealthtested puppies from people with nice houses means crap breeders continue to pocket money for their exploitation, and poor genes proliferate exponentially into future generations of dogs. Buyers often unknowningly do this once, which is completely understandable as such breeders rely on the fact that novice buyers trust them to be breed responsibly and don;t initially know better, but there's no excuse for willingly supporting the ignorant or deliberately exploitative as they ruin the breed. Go for a rescue dog instead.

    PS A lot of those nice houses are built on how lucrative crappy breeding is -- it sure is cheap and there sure are great margins when you don't buy excellent quality for your breeding dogs and don't health test.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I completely agree with Cathy and Karlin. Almost 2 years ago, we bought a black and tan pup from a breeder that we foolishly thought was reputable. We had the option to buy papers with him, but decided against it as we are only interested in having him as a pet and companion for us and our other Cavalier.
    We stupidly assumed that as the breeder was kennel club registered that they were ok. I am ashamed to admit that at the time I knew very little of the particular health concerns of Cavaliers and had no idea of what I should be asking the breeder about. Health issues were never brought up in the topic of conversation when we were taking him home with us, and once our vet gave him the all clear we were happy. The breeders premises was absolutely fabulous, and the dogs appeared to be kept clean and in very good living quarters. All of these things convinced me at the time that we were not dealing with a puppy farm or a 'bad' breeder.
    Unfortunatley one morning in March after his walk, our gorgeous little Jack passed away very suddenly with heart failure at only 20 months old. Our vet confirmed that he had a genetic defect with his heart and advised that we call the breeder to let them know what had happened. I was too upset at the time to speak, so my husband spoke with the breeder. The response we got was very cold and to be frank - they seemed uninterested and not in the slightest bit concerened at our loss.
    We have had to learn about the dangers of bad breeding in the most horrendous way possible. I feel so guilty at having not being more cautious about who we were buying from at the time. In saying that, I would not swap having had Jack for those 20 months - as he was the most adorable and loving dog I have ever known.

    I can only urge you to to be so careful about who you buy from and what level of health testing and breeding standards they follow. This breed is plagued with serious health issues, and if you knowingly purchase from these greedy BYB's then you are in every way contributing their wealth and to the ongoing suffering that these beautiful dogs have to endure.
    Mam to Millie, Chloe & Rex
    Baby boy Jack (waiting at the bridge) xxxxx

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