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black and tan cavalier

By the way, very few people now have to wait a year for a puppy if they are open to different locations or color or sex. A lot of very good breeders have puppies available lately, the economy has hit everything.
 
That's a very good point Nancy, one that I forgot to mention in my long post. For purely personal reasons I really wanted a blenheim female puppy, so this made my wait a bit longer(y)
 
Im not going to post a long post on BYB...you all know my feelings on that...but here is something for the ones that think BYB are good people, and care for the breed.

I purchased Hogan from a well known breeder, who shows and does more study on genetics and health testing than just about anyone I know-she only breeds for herself and I count myself lucky to have two of her dogs, one a retired bitch and one that was her first male puppy..... after I had Hogan- my neutered boy, here in my pet home... for over a year~ could have been longer than that...she found out a leading cardiologist was going to be at a local club show....she asked me to bring him up and have him heart tested just so she could be sure there were no issues, not that she expected there would be...but cared enough to check- double and triple check......that he was good, that she was making right choices, and she still wants to follow up even though he will never be reproducing, she wants to do right by the breed.....Really and true, isn't that someone you want to purchase a cavalier from?

( his heart is fine so far by the way...)

Someone that cares so much about what they are doing that even after they have placed pup and gotten their money.... and are willing to pay for a test just to make sure they have done things in the right way? That speaks volumes to me. I really hope that anyone thinking of getting a cavalier thinks about that for a minute....A breeder is a relationship for the life of your dog, if they are going to be gone tomorrow when you need them, or your dogs health is compromised because lack of testing....Where does that leave you? :rolleyes:
 
You all have very strong, valuable points. I know you all feel passionately about this subject and I respect your opinions.

When I was searching, I interviewed several breeders from the CKCS clubs breeder referral, and honestly found in ALL of them, something that did not sit right with me. One had one of her dogs debarked! Another spoke of her dogs as "its" or "things". In the end, I had to make a choice; buy a puppy from a reputable breeder I did not feel comfortable with, or from someone who I did feel comfortable with, but was not a reputable breeder. In the end, I chose the latter.

So, I reiterate the point that until such a time as there are enough good, reputable breeders to satisfy the demand, people will continue to go other routes to get a Cavalier. It is sad, but true.
 
When we were looking for our first cavalier, we spoke on the phone to several reputable breeders from our state and nearby states. They all knew each other from showing, etc., and referred us to other reputable breeders in our search for a tricolor female puppy. We found them to be friendly and helpful, and we finally located our puppy in another state after a just a few weeks of phone calls. We've met or seen some of the breeders we spoke to at various dog shows since then, and we've also seen photos of some of them in cavalier books. To be honest, I have no perception that there is or was a shortage of reputable breeders, and still do not believe there is a shortage today. It must really depend on how far one is willing to drive to pick up a puppy! :flwr:
 
A lot of you know I haven't been on the board much because of other obligations, but I try to keep up on what is going on. But I just have to respond to this thread. It's one of my pet peeves.

Maybe it's the economy, but I have noticed lately that there is a big increase in the number of people shopping for a Cavalier based on price alone. So I don't think there's a shortage of reputable breeders, I think there's a shortage of people who understand the value of buying from a reputable breeder vs. a BYB or mill broker. They see a Cavalier and say "I have to have one"; and who can blame them? They really are a beautiful dog, both inside and out. The problem comes when they find out what the price is. So instead of saving money for the next year or two, they go with what the can afford immediately: the $700 puppy from the newspaper. It's that instant gratification thing as near as I can tell.

I'm sure the BYB's are very nice people for the most part. They just don't care about the future of the breed enough to do even the basics of testing. Or maybe they know so little about the breed, they don't even know they should be testing. In either case, you have someone who, IMHO, is potentially damaging the breed as a whole. Heck they don't even know enough to sell the puppies on a spay/neuter contract (contract? What's that?). So on it goes.

Now if someone buys from a BYB without knowing the difference, I wish you and your puppy the best, hopefully you have a healthy puupy with a long life , and hopefully the next one comes from a reputable breeder. But if you DO know the difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB, and buy from the BYB, then what can I say...

Sorry to get so whipped up, but I see this all the time and get so frustrated with it. Read Karlin's posts on here again. BTW, if someone in this area is looking for a puppy in this area from a good breeder (sorry, we won't have any for several months), just call here and we can give you the names of 4 or 5 that are within a 3 hour drive. Or we can talk to you about our 5 month old rescue boy Jack, who we think came from a BYB.
 
IF you don't purchase from a reputable breeder, your chances of getting a dog with serious health issues is increased tremendously. You are really playing roulette.

My first 2 cavaliers are from a BYB, before I knew any better. I thought everyone bought dogs throught the local classified ads. Well Merry & Pippin have all sorts of hereditary health issues. Cataracts, Luxating Patella and food allergies. After going through these health expenses, I learned the hard way. The BYB did no health tests, just had her vet's assurance that her parent dogs were healthy.

Next I found these cavalier web boards and read up on what I need to know to find a cavalier from a reputable breeder. Jolly & Luke are from such a person. These 2 cavaliers are completely healthy. I have none of the issues I have with Merry and Pippin.

I had to drive 3 hours each way, to get Jolly & Luke, but it was worth it for the health guarantees.
 
chloe92us said:
You all have very strong, valuable points. I know you all feel passionately about this subject and I respect your opinions.

When I was searching, I interviewed several breeders from the CKCS clubs breeder referral, and honestly found in ALL of them, something that did not sit right with me. One had one of her dogs debarked! Another spoke of her dogs as "its" or "things". In the end, I had to make a choice; buy a puppy from a reputable breeder I did not feel comfortable with, or from someone who I did feel comfortable with, but was not a reputable breeder. In the end, I chose the latter.

So, I reiterate the point that until such a time as there are enough good, reputable breeders to satisfy the demand, people will continue to go other routes to get a Cavalier. It is sad, but true.
Click to expand...

So now it appears like you are supporting BYB because of a personality flaw in the 3 breeders you chose to call? Sounds like you are justifying a questionable decision at this point, so please don't blame it on the breeders. I know a lot of loving, personable, good breeders in Florida that you didn't call, because they don't debark or call their dogs "it". I tried to make a point in my previous post, let's learn from our increased knowledge over time. I'm sure you love your dog, and I love all the rescues that come into club rescue, we actually have the privilege of caring for dogs no matter where they came from, but I can't help but feel sad that some were brought into this world with a disadvantage and potential heartbreak for all concerned. In effect, we're cleaning up after them, often getting them the medical care they need . I wonder what your breeder would do if you called her up and said your dog needed patella surgery or had some other hereditary condition? I'm not trying to beat you up , but sending the message you appear to be is dangerous for others. When people call me for a puppy and say they only have so much to spend, I tell them to wait and save up , because a poorly bred cavalier is a bad decision. It is in any breed, but especially in this one.:sl*p:
 
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reputable breeders

i wonder is it possible for anyone here in southern ireland to pm me details of reputable breeders here who are doing the necessary heatlth testing thanks shan
 
One more thing to add and then I'll shut up.

If Nancy's Ace had been born into a BYB home, what do you think the odds are that he would have survived? Probably zero to none. The reputable breeders do what is necessary not only for the breed as a whole, but for the individuals as well. The good breeders don't even think twice about doing EVERYTHING necessary regardless of the time and cost involved.

Sorry to use you as an example again Nancy, hope you don't mind.
 
I want to reiterate that this board gives absolutely no space for supporting or promoting backyard breeding practice, and anyone who feels this is a problem, and wants to defend the indefensible, simply shouldn't be here. I have explained this ethos many times -- it is the foundation for the creation of this board -- and the reasons for it are clearly stated in the Getting Started section.

This thread is here because I believe the discussion was important for people to understand the difference between responsible and selfish breeding. On the board, there are those who are at the front line in conserving and protecting the breed and also those who have seen their own dogs from poor breeders suffer from ignorant breeding practices. They can make the case far better than I.

There is absolutely NO MORAL DIFFERENCE between someone who breeds in indifference to health and keeps their breeding dogs inside in a nice house, and those who mass breed hundreds of dogs in filthy cages. The end result is the SAME. Individual puppies at far higher risk of longterm health problems, heartbroken families who see their pets suffer, and another blow to overall longterm breed vitality in an already suffering breed. :x

Anyone is welcome to be offended by this ;) but please recall that this board is MY personal space -- that I pay for, maintain (with the generous and unpaid help of our moderators!) and open up to anyone to join. We all do this for the love of the breed, and top of the list of responsibility to the breed we love is responsible, health focused breeding. Unapologetically, I retain the right to make decisions about the kinds of topics I will allow. The board, though publicly available, is like a virtual extension of my own house. Just as I would show anyone passing racist comments under my roof to the door, so will I show the board's virtual door to anyone who feels they need to openly advocate a revolting, exploitative breeding approach to this wonderful breed. QED.

Anyone has every right to detest this board, me, my opinions, and this policy, :lol: but no one has the 'right' to be in my virtual living room and say whatever they want. (y)

******

Shan, finding a good breeder is an intensive process anywhere in the world. You will need to call and ask individual breeders about their approach, and also ask to see the proper health certs. Do not rely only on recommendations as that too is only a start and what someone else believes to be true about a breeder, may not be true -- ask for the evidence. (y)

If you want some possibilities of breeders who fully health test in the UK, maybe PM Nicki.
 
Karlin -- thank you for doing what you do here. It's obvious that you do this because you care deeply for this breed. I learned so much here. I stumbled across this site in my search for information on cavaliers and it truly saved me and my family from getting a puppy from some very undesirable (yet well disguised) situations. While talking to breeders, I received so much support and help from experts on this forum. Please know that this board and the people on it have made a huge positive impact in my family's life.

Nancy and Bruce -- thank you for being examples of reputable breeders. I appreciate your willingness to stick your necks out in defense of good breeding. Nancy, you know that without you I would not be sitting here typing with a cavalier sleeping on my lap. And Bruce, what you said about my husband falling in love is true -- I found them reading SI last night and offered to take Holly off his hands. He wouldn't let me and insisted on doing puppy duty the rest of the night;)
 
If I were ever looking to buy a 8-10 week old puppy, then I would seek out a reputable breeder. However, I am not a puppy person and did not want a puppy. I was looking for a young adult/ teenager so the breeders that had one available were limited and I stated this in my very first post. I am tired of being slammed for this.
 
The issue as raised by you and to which I and many others replied was not the individual purchase, but the general one of trying to defend a way of breeding that is never right. If you also used a personal example to defend your stance, then that example is bound to come under scrutiny. It is disingenuous to then complain you are being slammed.

Since you raised the point, the quality of the puppy does not improve simply because it is sold at an older age. And paying a backyard breeder for a dog, of any age, is still paying a backyard breeder and supporting that repulsive approach to breeding. Many people make the mistake once and learn more about why this is so wrong, and it also isn't a criticism of anyone's dog -- many of us own dogs from questionable backgrounds, me included. But defending that way of breeding and selling dogs is entirely a different matter.

Older dogs do regularly come up from reputable breeders as they rehome dogs they ran on but decide not to breed or show, or retire former breeding or show dogs. These dogs typically also cost quite a bit less. Lucy is one such dog, as is Leo.

Why it is important to really know what you are doing when you breed.
 
No one would ever say that you cannot get a pretty puppy from a BYB or even a puppymiller and if it were just about the outside of a Cavalier that was important there would not be any discussion. Breeding for the best of the breed involves science and research. Understanding of dominant and recessive genes and knowledge of history of lines are part of the influence on choosing breeding pairs and a BYB is hardly in a position to be a part of that process. The statement of first you search for a breeder is hardly said lightly when you consider the knowledge that goes into reputable breeding. It is hard to have the mindset to acquire a puppy or young adult and then have to wait for availability but unless one is willing to settle for questionable health now, or in the future,one has to wait.
 
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