Looking like our puppy has SM

[Ginnie]

I'm so relieved to have found this site.Our Vet rang me this morning and gave me this web address.Our 7 month old Georgie suddenly started having fits just before he was 6 months,then this last 3 weeks he's been falling over on his walks.We've been seeing the Vet evry couple of weeks and last night he was interested in the falling over ,which is fairly new.Anyway when he rang today he told me about SM and says he's pretty sure this is the problem,though obviously he'll have to have an MRI to confirm this.I'm pretty devastated because we only lost our dear Boxer Harry in January to a brain tumour which suddenly appeared in October.I didn't think lightening could strike twice!!Georgie is such a happy little thing and we love him dearly so we're trying to keep possitive.Unfortunately we're going on holiday next Friday and Georgie is going to his host family.The vet says he'll be ok and they're aware of the problem,in fact when they had him for a trial weekend a month ago he actually had a fit on the day he was due home.Anyway as I said I'm pleased I foound the site and feel better that I have somewhere I can come for support.Sorry to go on a bit but this has come as such a shock.One last thing,would anyone advise me to tell the breeder where we got Georgie from about this?Take care,Ginnie

[Karlin]

Hi Ginnie:

Glad you found the site and sorry your little pup is having these problems.

Given what you describe, I am wondering if you and your vet have looked into Episodic Falling Syndrome? What you describe sounds more like EFS than SM, as seizures are not that common with SM and are not (yet?) directly know to be associated with the condition (though they can have writhing pain sessions that might seem like a seizure, I have a video of a poor dog suffering one of these sessions on my website at www.smcavalier.com).

More info on EFS here: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8883

and there's a dedicated website here: www.cavalierepisodicfalling.com

Maybe talk to your vet about this possibility too. A neurologist appointment is what you need asap as there are medications that can help with the pain of both conditions.

[Cleo's Person]

Ginnie,

welcome to the site. This is such a good place to find support during the tough times. I'm so sorry to hear your precious puppy has SM. There are lots of other people here who can talk to you/advise you on that. I can't really. I just wanted to reply, so you got an answer soon. I would definitely tell your pups breeder about this. Any responsible breeder would want to know if something like this has happened to one of her pups. I'm glad that Georgie's host home know all about his condition. That must be a relief to you to know that they're aware of what's going on.

I'm sorry I don't have more constructive advice. I just wanted you to know that there are many shoulders and ears here if you need them.

Tanya

p.s. any chance of a few photos of the lovely lad?

[Karlin]

Oh yes, I should have said do DEFINITELY inform the breeder; it is so important for them to know there's an issue especially with a young dog. The breeding should not be repeated and if SM is confirmed the owner of stud and dam would want to MRI their dogs.

Has your vet tried any medication? Have they investigated epilepsy too?

I would not want him to be left without any treatment at all while you are away. If the vet suspects SM there are a range of things that could be tried (downloadable at the smcavalier site). If EFS or epilepsy, then anti-seizure medication.

[Ginnie]

Hi again and thanks for your quick replies,much appreciated.Yes Georgie was given a second injection yesterday of a hormone type,which the vet said would calm him down without making him dopey,he said his Testosterone is raging away at the age he is now!He didn't want to give him any anti Epilepsy drugs until his condition was confirmed.He explained that the Gabapentin,if prescribed would help both the SM and fits.His fits seem to subsiding this last week or so and is being replaced by more of the falling over,especially on his walks.We're also noticing the scratching more.His falling over is more or less happening every walk,tonight it happened again,about 3 times,that was on a fairly short walk too.He soon recovers and then is back to his bouncy self,though he's almost Hyper after wards!!Thanks again,take care.Ginnie.Oh I'll phone the breeder tomorrow.I've just put a couple of pics of him in my profile album too!

[Karlin]

How long will you be away? I have to say first that I totally disagree with your vet that a dog having such severe symptoms will be 'OK' left without any pain medication or management excepting a hormone injection. I would make an appointment to see a neurologist now, so you can get in immediately on your return, assuming you won't be away too long. If this is SM, it really sounds like it could be advanced already and you would really want to have him seen immediately on your return or have someone else get him in while you are away if you are away for a while. If he is falling over it would likely indicate serious damage that, the longer it is left untreated, will become irreversible. I don't want to worry you before a holiday but really, every week may matter for any possibility of a future if he has serious damage.

To give you some context, a dog falling over would really be a pretty serious case if this is SM as the dog's motor functions would be failing. If it is EFS, though, then it is probably less urgent as falling over is more common (because it is happening so often on walks though, this really sounds like something I'd want checked very urgently whatever it is). Have you watched the video on my SM site, and are the 'seizures' like that one? If so, they are not actually seizures, they are very severe pain sessions -- again, for this I would get him to a neurologist as fast as possible or beg your vet to at least talk to a neurologist and see if Georgie can at least be placed on painkillers until your return (eg steroids or gabapentin, maybe started on furosemide to see if that will lower CSF pressure inside his head and spine, etc).

On my SM site I have a list of UK neurologists.

Also getting him in asap for a neuter would significantly help lower the excitement levels that will likely worsen SM -- it causes the CSF to circulate more quickly every time he gets excited, and this creates the pressure which causes the pain sessions and makes the syrinxes continue to enlarge. With SM dogs you really want to do all you can to keep them from getting overly active and excited.

[Ginnie]

Hi there,I just had to contact you about this.Thanks for your last post,I got straight away onto the Falling Over site,it's so like Georgie.Anyway I thought I'd phone the Breeder.The lady I collected him from was away on holiday,I wqas told before that her friend was the actual breeder,but had had a heart op,so she had taken the two pups for her and was going to look after them for the 8 weeks before they were to be collected.I then rang her friend,who I was led to believe was the actual Breeder!I explained about Georgie and straight away she said "Oh it's falling over Syndrome,his brother has already been but to sleep"!I asked if it was inherited from the Mother or Father and she said,"well actually we don't know who the parents are".It turns out that the Lady I collected him from was actually the breeder (she breeds Pugs)and that because she had no insurance or paperwork for the puppies,asked her friend to do those for her!Therefore the kennel club certificate with his Three Generation
Pedigree etc is a complete lie,all made up.I'm so shocked and upset about this.She said "I could get into a lot of bother with doing that"!! and then said "I've a litter here I can't find homes for,you can have one of these if you like,and by the way you do realise Georgie won't live above two years,if that"?I just said I had to go and put the phone down.I've rung my vet who is really great and is starting Georgie on meds tonight and says he'll do what he can for him.I can't believe that after losing Harry only so short a time ago,that we may have to go through it all again so soon.I'm going to try and stay possitive but it's so hard I just can't stop crying.Thanks for the advice .Take care,Ginnie

[WoodHaven]

You should really look at http://www.cavalierepisodicfalling.com/ like Karlin had suggested. I have heard of a few cavaliers that seem to outgrow the issue. Some seem to do better on certain drugs. I think it depends upon the severity. Someone told me if you stay calm and pick up the pup and talk and stroke it, it may lessen the severity of the episode.

[Karlin]

Ginnie don't get too worried til you have him seen by a neurologist and get an actual diagnosis. Some dogs have the symptoms totally controlled; some just have EFS go away. There ARE options and possibilities! But you really need to have him properly diagnosed as this may not even be EFS. EFS probably offers more possibility for most affected dogs than symptomatic SM. There are some UK contacts you can email directly from the EFS site for advice too on who might be good to see.

Try to get some videos of him out walking and having the seizures so that you can bring those along.

I am going to PM you the name of a couple of people you should contact about this situation. I will ask them to have a read about your situation. This is just ludicrous that this breeder is operating in this way. Did they actually give you KC papers and so on or is it just a supposed pedigree they wrote up? Do you know the name of the lady with the pugs that is the actual breeder? Don't post it publicly, I am just wondering if you have a name for her.

[WoodHaven]

Karlin explained much better what I was wanting to say. Don't panic--
I agree that the breeder shouldn't be operating this way. AND I hope to heavens she isn't still breeding (especially those dogs suspect to be the parents).