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A Cavalier film, health related, BBC1........
- Thread starter Alison_Leighfield
- Start date
Claire L
Well-known member
I had a similar experience when we lost our Rudee. My questions about SM MVD luxating patella etc were met with stoney silenceand I was laughingly dismissed.
I thought this thread would be closed off long ago. Thank you Karlin from the bottom of my heart for keeping it open and for putting into words what many of us have felt and thought.:flwr:
A Cavalier Film ,Health Related.BBC 1
I will also say thanks for keeping this Thread open
I will repeat again ,the Post I asked previously
Because Margaret C is member of the UK Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Health Committee ,in her recent Post she made mention of her views and that she is appearing in the Film
I will ask again , are those her Personal Views or those of the UK CKCS Club Committee
Hopefully I will get a reply
Bet
I will also say thanks for keeping this Thread open
I will repeat again ,the Post I asked previously
Because Margaret C is member of the UK Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Health Committee ,in her recent Post she made mention of her views and that she is appearing in the Film
I will ask again , are those her Personal Views or those of the UK CKCS Club Committee
Hopefully I will get a reply
Bet
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
It will be very interesting to see the final production on air after all the hours and months it has had in it's making and with such dedication shown from its makers behind it.
I found Passionate Productions to be a very caring group of very hardworking people with integrity and commitment. The type of documentries that they make are just simply outstanding.
Simply all breeders that are club members have access to good health information. They then choose themselves, knowledge permitting, what to do with that information and we cannot force them otherwise. We cannot demand that they scan their dogs. Don't waste time trying. As pet buyers we can only support those that fully adhere to the breeding guidelines that are put into place, and accept health as a very high priority. We applaud them.
Realistly though and it's a sad thought but just how many of these pups actually get into pet homes? simply not enough. We desperately need more and more breeders to scan and to help us find healthy pups, and also to give us continued results of further generations that could and should be scanned. No half jobs, just good honest commitment. May the film encourage more to scan.
I personally hope that this film makes other well informed breeders that have downplayed this condition realise the severity of what is going on in this breed, may they seriously take time to reflect on what they will see. They then have to live with their own conscience at the end of the day as to what they continue to do. Be it on their own heads if they wish to bury them in the sand.
What gives me greater concern still is what happens to the huge area in breeding that doesn't get the much needed information and to those breeders that simply don't care and use breeding for financial gain only. To those like Puppy Farmers that register many, many sick dogs. Also the odd pet dog owners that have a few litters. How do we stop them? How do we get the KC to take more responsibility for these areas? it's a huge area of sales proberbly the largest combined area providing the KC with alot of registration fees, money no doubt they wouldn't want to lose. They need to tighten up on the registrations of dogs that don't follow any breeding protocols. The KC can and should have done alot more and along time ago with regards to Cavaiers, SM and the much needed breeding guidelines. They do alot of "thinking and looking" but a registration agency that makes alot of money is basically all that they are. The Accredited Breeders scheme is simply useless, what a waste of valuable resources. Even a PF can have that status.
I look at this film as an education into dog breeding and with it some of it's more serious breed problems being covered. Our precious Cavalier King Charles Spanial is sadly one of them.
May it educate and draw much needed awareness everywhere.
Alison.
I found Passionate Productions to be a very caring group of very hardworking people with integrity and commitment. The type of documentries that they make are just simply outstanding.
Simply all breeders that are club members have access to good health information. They then choose themselves, knowledge permitting, what to do with that information and we cannot force them otherwise. We cannot demand that they scan their dogs. Don't waste time trying. As pet buyers we can only support those that fully adhere to the breeding guidelines that are put into place, and accept health as a very high priority. We applaud them.
Realistly though and it's a sad thought but just how many of these pups actually get into pet homes? simply not enough. We desperately need more and more breeders to scan and to help us find healthy pups, and also to give us continued results of further generations that could and should be scanned. No half jobs, just good honest commitment. May the film encourage more to scan.
I personally hope that this film makes other well informed breeders that have downplayed this condition realise the severity of what is going on in this breed, may they seriously take time to reflect on what they will see. They then have to live with their own conscience at the end of the day as to what they continue to do. Be it on their own heads if they wish to bury them in the sand.
What gives me greater concern still is what happens to the huge area in breeding that doesn't get the much needed information and to those breeders that simply don't care and use breeding for financial gain only. To those like Puppy Farmers that register many, many sick dogs. Also the odd pet dog owners that have a few litters. How do we stop them? How do we get the KC to take more responsibility for these areas? it's a huge area of sales proberbly the largest combined area providing the KC with alot of registration fees, money no doubt they wouldn't want to lose. They need to tighten up on the registrations of dogs that don't follow any breeding protocols. The KC can and should have done alot more and along time ago with regards to Cavaiers, SM and the much needed breeding guidelines. They do alot of "thinking and looking" but a registration agency that makes alot of money is basically all that they are. The Accredited Breeders scheme is simply useless, what a waste of valuable resources. Even a PF can have that status.
I look at this film as an education into dog breeding and with it some of it's more serious breed problems being covered. Our precious Cavalier King Charles Spanial is sadly one of them.
May it educate and draw much needed awareness everywhere.
Alison.
Margaret C
Well-known member
A Cavalier Film ,Health Related ,BBC1
Thank you Margaret for explaining that the views you quoted are your own and not of the UK CKCS Club since the UK CKCS Club Committee are so aware of the Revolutionary Research being carried out by Dr S Blott
That the Cavalier Breed is the First Dog Breed in the World to be being involved in this type of Research
I do hope that you made the Film Producer aware of this exciting Research ,and how the Cavalier Breed now has hopes for the Future
Bet
Thank you Margaret for explaining that the views you quoted are your own and not of the UK CKCS Club since the UK CKCS Club Committee are so aware of the Revolutionary Research being carried out by Dr S Blott
That the Cavalier Breed is the First Dog Breed in the World to be being involved in this type of Research
I do hope that you made the Film Producer aware of this exciting Research ,and how the Cavalier Breed now has hopes for the Future
Bet
Bet, the producers were at the Rugby conference and heard Sarah Blott discuss her research, which is as Sarah noted, based on the work by Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge and again, requires a lot more breeder MRIing and cooperation before it will be of much use, and also will depend on the successful completion of the Canadian genome scan project (or the EVBs will be only experimental, and not based on any solid genetic information).
Thus I hope you will be encouraging the breeder community to both MRI and contribute to the genome research as it is so essential for the success of Sarah Blott's research! Incidentally, as Veronica Hull, who is prominent on the Southern Club and their health committee member, also was interviewed a couple of times for the documentary, I wonder if you have confirmed whether the views she expresses are hers alone, or the breed club's? Or other members of the various breed clubs who were interviewed? This too might be of great interest when the film is viewed. Margaret has several times (here and elsewhere) made it clear that she spoke for herself, not for the club, in the film. I wonder if the views expressed by other club committee members will be theirs, or the club's? icon_nwunsure If you know, or have asked, please let us know!
Unfortunately though, as breeders have not widely embraced the MVD protocol one is left wondering what will encourage widespread and honest use of EVBs. Many of us will hope that a documentary exposing some of the health issues that arise with purebred breeding, and how good breeding practice minimises those risks, might be just the thing to galvanise the breeders who do not breed for health, or who say they do, but actually do not, to be more careful in their breeding practice and use tools like the MVD protocol and the EVBs.
Thus I hope you will be encouraging the breeder community to both MRI and contribute to the genome research as it is so essential for the success of Sarah Blott's research! Incidentally, as Veronica Hull, who is prominent on the Southern Club and their health committee member, also was interviewed a couple of times for the documentary, I wonder if you have confirmed whether the views she expresses are hers alone, or the breed club's? Or other members of the various breed clubs who were interviewed? This too might be of great interest when the film is viewed. Margaret has several times (here and elsewhere) made it clear that she spoke for herself, not for the club, in the film. I wonder if the views expressed by other club committee members will be theirs, or the club's? icon_nwunsure If you know, or have asked, please let us know!
Unfortunately though, as breeders have not widely embraced the MVD protocol one is left wondering what will encourage widespread and honest use of EVBs. Many of us will hope that a documentary exposing some of the health issues that arise with purebred breeding, and how good breeding practice minimises those risks, might be just the thing to galvanise the breeders who do not breed for health, or who say they do, but actually do not, to be more careful in their breeding practice and use tools like the MVD protocol and the EVBs.
OK I checked the BBC site and this is showing on Tuesday, 19th August at 9pm in England and in Northern Ireland so that means we in the Republic should also get it Tuesday. But it is not listed for Tuesday for Scotland, so I would guess Friday the 22nd is correct (I cannot check as the calendar of programmes doesn't go that far ahead on the BBC1 site).
This is a one hour programme:
This is a one hour programme:
Cathy Moon
Well-known member
I am so relieved our members have the convictions and the courage to speak up about this topic. Karlin, Margaret C, and Bobbypuppy - I thank you; I respect and applaud you.
Arlene
Well-known member
"Karlin, Margaret C, and Bobbypuppy - I thank you; I respect and applaud you."
I would just like to second this.
I find myself in tears reading through some of these posts. These tears are a reflection of my extreme frustration in my interactions with breeders in my small part of the world who are STILL insisting that MRIs are pointless and that they can't arrange to get to clinics for cardiologist testing.
They can, however, trip accross North America to judge in shows or show their dogs and gather points toward their precious Champion titles.
If this film puts even a small amount of pressure on. or lends a small amount of awareness for those looking toward purchasing a puppy, that is all for the good.
Arlene and her three: JP - Alaskan Husky, Rocky - Cavalier Spaniel, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix.
I would just like to second this.
I find myself in tears reading through some of these posts. These tears are a reflection of my extreme frustration in my interactions with breeders in my small part of the world who are STILL insisting that MRIs are pointless and that they can't arrange to get to clinics for cardiologist testing.
They can, however, trip accross North America to judge in shows or show their dogs and gather points toward their precious Champion titles.
If this film puts even a small amount of pressure on. or lends a small amount of awareness for those looking toward purchasing a puppy, that is all for the good.
Arlene and her three: JP - Alaskan Husky, Rocky - Cavalier Spaniel, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix.
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
Is dog breeding a taxable income???
Alison.
Alison.
angelmommy
Well-known member
thanks i will deffo try watch it and so will angel no doubt lol
A Cavalier Film, Health Related,BBC1
Could I start off by saying that I am not a Cavalier Breeder ,been a Pet Owner for aroud 30 years I know the bitterness that some of you have expressed in your Posts
As the saying goes -been there -done that
But have realized it just does no good to Breeder bash
So over the years I have collected Cavalier pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble ,who about a month of having their Vaccination ,their heart Condition suddenly worsened ,and they 'd died shortly afterwards
I have also collected pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Epilepsy .
All those pedigrees have been sent to Researchers I felt it was better to be Positive about the health problems than go on and on about the Breeders ,who did'nt have the Scientific knowledge that is around to-day They could have been Breeding Carriers to carriers .
Out of the Frying pan into the Fire !
Now though with this New type of Research being carried out by Dr S Blott at the Animal Health Trust ,here in Britain ,what a Future the Cavalier Breed now has ,
It has never been tried before ,the Cavalier Breed is Pioneering the way ,the First Breed in the World to be being used for this type of Research ,
So please don't Knock the Cavalier Breeders ,the Cavalier Breed sure needs them!!!!
Why I was keen to find out if Margaret C was speaking on behalf of the Cavalier Club Committee is because Iam a Member of the UK CKCS CLUB ,and did'nt think that the CKCS Committee ,because of this new Research would be having the Views that Margaret C has just expressed.
I do hope she has made plain on the Flim that she gave her interview for about this New Type of Research ,and has not dwelled on the past with her depressing Views of has been
The past is gone ,let it go ,and now all in the Cavalier World move forward with the Hope that this New Research has now given to the Breed
Bet
Could I start off by saying that I am not a Cavalier Breeder ,been a Pet Owner for aroud 30 years I know the bitterness that some of you have expressed in your Posts
As the saying goes -been there -done that
But have realized it just does no good to Breeder bash
So over the years I have collected Cavalier pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble ,who about a month of having their Vaccination ,their heart Condition suddenly worsened ,and they 'd died shortly afterwards
I have also collected pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Epilepsy .
All those pedigrees have been sent to Researchers I felt it was better to be Positive about the health problems than go on and on about the Breeders ,who did'nt have the Scientific knowledge that is around to-day They could have been Breeding Carriers to carriers .
Out of the Frying pan into the Fire !
Now though with this New type of Research being carried out by Dr S Blott at the Animal Health Trust ,here in Britain ,what a Future the Cavalier Breed now has ,
It has never been tried before ,the Cavalier Breed is Pioneering the way ,the First Breed in the World to be being used for this type of Research ,
So please don't Knock the Cavalier Breeders ,the Cavalier Breed sure needs them!!!!
Why I was keen to find out if Margaret C was speaking on behalf of the Cavalier Club Committee is because Iam a Member of the UK CKCS CLUB ,and did'nt think that the CKCS Committee ,because of this new Research would be having the Views that Margaret C has just expressed.
I do hope she has made plain on the Flim that she gave her interview for about this New Type of Research ,and has not dwelled on the past with her depressing Views of has been
The past is gone ,let it go ,and now all in the Cavalier World move forward with the Hope that this New Research has now given to the Breed
Bet
BobbyPuppy
Member
Are we bashing the breeders?
Hello Bet
I am aware of all the good work you do for cavaliers but would like to ask are we 'bashing cavalier breeders' or just expressing real frustration?
Over a year on from the death of my ruby boy it still hurts. When I started to look for another pup to keep Sam my other cavalier company, I encountered extremely bad practice within the cavalier world in the South of England. I am not bashing the breeders - I am telling the truth; they were willing to breed litters and litters of cavaliers without heart or SM testing the parents.
People recognised as 'experts' within the Cavalier world are perpetuating a terrible heart-breaking pattern. How can we not have strong feelings for these animals who offer nothing but pure love to us???
If people choose not to follow health recommendations - choose to be focused on their own agendas and then put Cavalier owners through the most terrible anxiety and heartbreak there must surely be some retaliation?
Many people are like me - they get their first Cavalier knowing little about the breed and then fall in love. These are the people who are vulnerable.
Oliver was 5 years old when he dropped dead in front of me. Of all the difficult times in my life nothing compares to my cavaliers death and because of this I - and I believe many other cavalier owners - must have more responsible breeders.
Hello Bet
I am aware of all the good work you do for cavaliers but would like to ask are we 'bashing cavalier breeders' or just expressing real frustration?
Over a year on from the death of my ruby boy it still hurts. When I started to look for another pup to keep Sam my other cavalier company, I encountered extremely bad practice within the cavalier world in the South of England. I am not bashing the breeders - I am telling the truth; they were willing to breed litters and litters of cavaliers without heart or SM testing the parents.
People recognised as 'experts' within the Cavalier world are perpetuating a terrible heart-breaking pattern. How can we not have strong feelings for these animals who offer nothing but pure love to us???
If people choose not to follow health recommendations - choose to be focused on their own agendas and then put Cavalier owners through the most terrible anxiety and heartbreak there must surely be some retaliation?
Many people are like me - they get their first Cavalier knowing little about the breed and then fall in love. These are the people who are vulnerable.
Oliver was 5 years old when he dropped dead in front of me. Of all the difficult times in my life nothing compares to my cavaliers death and because of this I - and I believe many other cavalier owners - must have more responsible breeders.
A Cavalier Film ,Health Related ,BBC1
I was'nt going to add anymore to this discussion ,but the point Iwas trying to make does''nt seem to be being understood
Sweep ,our first Cavalier died at 4 ,others followed at an early age as well
It sure does hurt
But what good does it do dwelling in the past ,and Breeder Bashing as is happening to-day
The Breeders are as keen to find the answers to the Cavalier Health problems as we pet Owners
At the moment there are conflicting opinions being given by SM Researchers ,all that has been proved is that SM is not confined to The Cavalier Breed ,it is in other Small Breeds as well
Something else must be being involved in the Disease . WHY
Some Cavaliers are being severly affected others only have a Mild Form of the Problem WHY
This is why ,hopefully the Research by Dr S Blott will find the answer
This New Research will be involved in Breeding the MVD and SM problems out of the Breed ,what else can be being tried
Idont suppose the answer will ever be found asto what has caused it ,since it is those other Breeds as well
But at the moment till more is known about SM ,have a wee bit of Faith in this New type of Research .
Finally we had the Tears because of the Heart Trouble in our Cherished cavaliers ,but we sure have had Joy and Pleasure from our Golden Oldies
So do try and understand what I am trying to explain that there is now hope for the Breed ,
put the sad experiences behind us and realize that there is now Hope for the Future of the Breed
Bet
I was'nt going to add anymore to this discussion ,but the point Iwas trying to make does''nt seem to be being understood
Sweep ,our first Cavalier died at 4 ,others followed at an early age as well
It sure does hurt
But what good does it do dwelling in the past ,and Breeder Bashing as is happening to-day
The Breeders are as keen to find the answers to the Cavalier Health problems as we pet Owners
At the moment there are conflicting opinions being given by SM Researchers ,all that has been proved is that SM is not confined to The Cavalier Breed ,it is in other Small Breeds as well
Something else must be being involved in the Disease . WHY
Some Cavaliers are being severly affected others only have a Mild Form of the Problem WHY
This is why ,hopefully the Research by Dr S Blott will find the answer
This New Research will be involved in Breeding the MVD and SM problems out of the Breed ,what else can be being tried
Idont suppose the answer will ever be found asto what has caused it ,since it is those other Breeds as well
But at the moment till more is known about SM ,have a wee bit of Faith in this New type of Research .
Finally we had the Tears because of the Heart Trouble in our Cherished cavaliers ,but we sure have had Joy and Pleasure from our Golden Oldies
So do try and understand what I am trying to explain that there is now hope for the Breed ,
put the sad experiences behind us and realize that there is now Hope for the Future of the Breed
Bet
Ruth
Well-known member
I agree Bet.
I too am a pet owner and fell in love with this breed with my first one 40 years ago. The cavaliers I have these days have all lived longer than the ones I had when first starting out. Like Bet says we really have to look to the future and save the 'bashing' for these Puppy Farmers who impose unspeakable cruelty and inhumane conditions on these wonderful trusting dogs.
I too am a pet owner and fell in love with this breed with my first one 40 years ago. The cavaliers I have these days have all lived longer than the ones I had when first starting out. Like Bet says we really have to look to the future and save the 'bashing' for these Puppy Farmers who impose unspeakable cruelty and inhumane conditions on these wonderful trusting dogs.
The past, unfortunately, is not gone -- it lives on in generations and generations of dogs affected by poor breeding practice. Appalling, compassionless breeding practice that continues right now.
I can promise you that the problem does not reside solely in puppy farmed dogs.
There is absolutely NO difference between a puppy farmer who doesn't health test and follow good breeding practice and a show breeder who doesn't health test or follow good breeding practice -- they both play a revolting game of roulette with individual dog's lives and with the future of the breed.
If anything, the show breeder who knowingly breeds like this is far WORSE than the BYB and puppy farmer. I know I can speak for many owners of SM affected dogs who would argue a life of relative health in small cage might well be preferable to the pain of SM ignored for the sake of a bank account filled with stud fees. Poor breeding practice MUST be exposed.
I am well aware of several club breeders who have willfully and knowingly bred -- and who continue to breed litters from -- MRI-diagnosed, symptomatic SM dogs.
I know of breed club members who have bred dogs at well under the MVD protocol age, with no heart testing done. I know of breed club members who have recommended pet buyers take the dogs from breeders who do not follow the heart protocol because apparently it doesn't matter if they privately say it doesn't matter, regardless of what they say publicly. I am not even talking about vet tested parents -- I am talking about underage dogs with NO heart testing done on them at all.
I have been threatened by lawsuits by these people and know others who have been similarly threatened. As if WE are doing something wrong!
There is no way I will not continue to work to have these individuals exposed for the sake of every dog that dies early of MVD or shrieks in pain from SM. They have NO PLACE in the breed yet they retain their positions in the clubs and show ring. I may not be able to name them -- until this documentary I hope might expose some of them with obvious and unequivocal evidence! -- but I would like to know how these supposed guardians of the breed are not as despicable and ethically and morally barren as the worst puppy farmer.
Many of these people underestimated the power of puppy buyers that actually care about the breed, not rosettes -- people who have seen their behaviour and know what is going on. I know every caring breeder will also welcome their exposure.
If such a documentary encourages broader discussion about the whole breeding industry from top to bottom, including the lack of regulation of puppy farms that means those 'breeders' too cause the proliferation of genetic problems, then that will be a wonderful achievement.
But if it can expose some of the individuals that many of us know conspire to keep their and their friends' actual breeding practice hidden, then roll on Passionate Productions and let the evidence stand on its own.
I can promise you that the problem does not reside solely in puppy farmed dogs.
There is absolutely NO difference between a puppy farmer who doesn't health test and follow good breeding practice and a show breeder who doesn't health test or follow good breeding practice -- they both play a revolting game of roulette with individual dog's lives and with the future of the breed.
If anything, the show breeder who knowingly breeds like this is far WORSE than the BYB and puppy farmer. I know I can speak for many owners of SM affected dogs who would argue a life of relative health in small cage might well be preferable to the pain of SM ignored for the sake of a bank account filled with stud fees. Poor breeding practice MUST be exposed.
I am well aware of several club breeders who have willfully and knowingly bred -- and who continue to breed litters from -- MRI-diagnosed, symptomatic SM dogs.
I know of breed club members who have bred dogs at well under the MVD protocol age, with no heart testing done. I know of breed club members who have recommended pet buyers take the dogs from breeders who do not follow the heart protocol because apparently it doesn't matter if they privately say it doesn't matter, regardless of what they say publicly. I am not even talking about vet tested parents -- I am talking about underage dogs with NO heart testing done on them at all.
I have been threatened by lawsuits by these people and know others who have been similarly threatened. As if WE are doing something wrong!
There is no way I will not continue to work to have these individuals exposed for the sake of every dog that dies early of MVD or shrieks in pain from SM. They have NO PLACE in the breed yet they retain their positions in the clubs and show ring. I may not be able to name them -- until this documentary I hope might expose some of them with obvious and unequivocal evidence! -- but I would like to know how these supposed guardians of the breed are not as despicable and ethically and morally barren as the worst puppy farmer.
Many of these people underestimated the power of puppy buyers that actually care about the breed, not rosettes -- people who have seen their behaviour and know what is going on. I know every caring breeder will also welcome their exposure.
If such a documentary encourages broader discussion about the whole breeding industry from top to bottom, including the lack of regulation of puppy farms that means those 'breeders' too cause the proliferation of genetic problems, then that will be a wonderful achievement.
But if it can expose some of the individuals that many of us know conspire to keep their and their friends' actual breeding practice hidden, then roll on Passionate Productions and let the evidence stand on its own.
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
I couldn't agree more Ruth, wouldn't we all like to Bash a Puppy Farm Breeder.
So many badly bred poorly sick dogs coming through these places....and how on earth will they ever want to MRI and heart check any of their dogs and bitches???? never I guess is the answer, they could't give a damn about health and yet people still buy their pups with all the advice in the world not to. It's so frustrating.
It would be interesting to find out the percentage of Cavalier puppy sales that come from Puppy Farms/commercial and also our regular breeders. Is this information available at all?
Alison.
So many badly bred poorly sick dogs coming through these places....and how on earth will they ever want to MRI and heart check any of their dogs and bitches???? never I guess is the answer, they could't give a damn about health and yet people still buy their pups with all the advice in the world not to. It's so frustrating.
It would be interesting to find out the percentage of Cavalier puppy sales that come from Puppy Farms/commercial and also our regular breeders. Is this information available at all?
Alison.