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A Cavalier film, health related, BBC1........

A Cavalier Film ,Health Related ,BBC 1

Karlin ,
I have just read your Post ,and so disappointed that you just cant seem to take on -board what I am trying to explain

Could you just answer me this simple question?
/

What do you advise being done at this moment in time for the Cavalier Breed?

All Cavaliers to be put to sleep .?

Wipe the Slate clean ?
Start Again?

Surely not !!!!

What is your Suggestion ?

All that can be being done just now is being done through Dr S Blott's Research at the Animal health Trust

I have tried to explain how it is giving Hope for the Future of the Cavalier Breed

What more do you want?

I had'nt realized that Passionate Productions could maybe be exposing some of the individuals who are conspiring to their Breeding Practices Hidden .

You must be meaning in the Cavalier World

I hope if this is the case they have the evidence to back up their claims

How are you going to have individuals exposed for the sake of every Dog that dies early of MVD or SM

What about those that die from Cancer etc

Dont they matter ?

Bet
 
Response to Bet

I'm sorry Bet, but I think it is you who has not understood the point I am trying to make. You write:

'The breeders are as keen to find the answers to the Cavalier Health as we pet owners'

It is this I am disputing - whilst some breeders certainly are complete stars, there are some leading breeders in the Cavalier world who are NOT following good practice, breeding using young dogs, not heart or SM tested.

I know this for a fact and it is naive to say 'let's forget the past'. That would be to forget what we lost and what we could still have if people weren't so greedy and short-sighted.
 
Bet:

My posts have nothing whatsoever to do with the existing research programmes as these are not the topic of discussion. My support for those has been long-standing, indeed, longer standing than most of the breeders on the committees of the breed clubs.

All you need to do is read four years of posts to the CKCS-SM discussion list and you will see exactly who has fallen on which side of the debate.

My support for learning more and helping the breed though research and campaigning on breed welfare has been unstinting for four solid years. This includes:

  • several rounds of fundraising on behalf of several international research projects
  • fundraising on behalf of individual dogs with SM that need immediate help
  • professional advice as an editor to various individuals and groups
  • creating websites and support groups, information which now forms the basis for several breeder and national club SM information sections and is widely recommended by vets and neurologists for owners of SM dogs -- and is used at several international vet schools as well and has formed the basis for presentations by breeders to breed clubs internationally
  • weekly contact with people who want advice on dealing with SM dogs, on dealing with breeders, on recommendations for neurologists, etc
  • MRIing my dogs for research at my own expense and donating blood afterwards, which required travel to the UK and close to £750/euro1000 out of my own pocket
  • travel to and coverage of two international SM conferences, again out of my own pocket
  • recording the entire Rugby conference and editing and creating the two- CD set which in turn has raised many hundreds of pounds for CKCS SM research
  • donating to the AKC health fund in the US on behalf of CKCS research
  • campaigning and lobbying for regulations on puppy farming in Ireland
  • covering this issue through prominent articles in Ireland
  • privately lobbying directly to top level politicians and similar contacts that I have through my day job as a journalist
  • running a rescue that takes in the cavaliers the Irish breed club does not and establishing a national reputation as the island's only CKCS breed rescue
  • compiling information on international CKCS puppy farmers and brokers that was submitted directly to government agencies here and went into work done on our proposed puppy farm legislation

I do not need to apologise to anyone for the time I have given to support research, researchers, the breed, and many pet owners and good breeders.

Many others refuse to do anything at all, while more recently, some others, especially in the breed clubs, came very late to thinking that any research at all should be done. I am glad some people have finally begun to see the value of the work many of us have supported for years. :) But I am surprised that people who opposed and continue to dispute Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler's groundbreaking work, cannot seem to understand what Sarah Blott has herself said several times -- that their work is the basis for the work on EVBs that she is now doing and without which her EVBs would be impossible to compile. If this had to be re-done we could not expect to hear about EVBs at all for another decade or so as that is how long it has taken for them to compile what they currently have and know. If the genome study is not supported, then her work will only offer minimal value to breeders, as Sarah herself clearly has stated.

I am baffled that some continue to think Sarah's work is somehow a uniquely different type of research to what has already been done and why some support what Sarah is doing yet continue to dispute the very grounds on which her work is based, here and on other lists. If people read her outline of research on the UK Club site you will see that she bases her ability to predict EVBs on the findings of Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler, and asks for for MRIs to be done and the Canadian genome project to be supported, and for breeders to submit existing MRI results and heart results. Sarah Blott's work also will NOT determine the possible causes of SM; Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler's and Guy Rouleau's genome work is what will, if this is possible.

But this is entirely separate from the point of this thread and the point of the documentary, which is general breeding practice and pedigree dogs, and certainly raises the question of whether breeders should have to answer for KNOWINGLY breeding affected dogs or dogs with no health clearances, which is little different from puppy farm breeding (and I would argue, WORSE from those who should know better). And it is a separate issue from whether it is not now long past the time when clubs should take a more active and positive role in promoting breed health and -- on evidence that voluntary cooperation with health protocols has achieved little -- require that verification of certain basic health standards be done if breeders are to be given club registration for their puppies.

But: Sarah Blott's work will also be worthless if it is not used by breeders. You yourself would be the first to agree that the breeders have NOT used the MVD protocol as if they had, we would not be seeing the very same poor breed heart health results as a full decade ago, as highlighted by cardiologist Simon Swift.

If breeders so far have not voluntarily chosen to follow this simple protocol, which breed clubs have supported internationally by providing many opportunities for low cost cardiologist screening, why should any of us dare to hope that breeders will use Sarah's EVBs?

If using these protocols was REQUIRED, on the other hand, I would have hope for the breed, at least as bred by club breeders, who should be required to follow health protocols to get KC registration for their dogs.
 
Alison Leighfield wote:
Simply all breeders that are club members have access to good health information. They then choose themselves, knowledge permitting, what to do with that information and we cannot force them otherwise. We cannot demand that they scan their dogs.
Click to expand...

I disagree, I think it should be MANDATORY for all club breeders to follow both MVD and SM protocols.
 
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Fully agree, why can't breeders be required to follow protocols for serious breed issues if they are to receive kennel club puppy registrations?

Sweden does this for MVD; why don't any other clubs?

If this were done just for MVD, the puppy farm/mill market would be decimated overnight as none of those people are willing to pay for proper testing and vet care, all they want is KC registered breeding dogs so they can produce KC registered pups for whatever kennel club registry is relevant in that country. Yes they'd still sell puppies, but far fewer as most people do still look for basic club registrations.

Such a requirement would shut down the import of Irish poorly bred dogs that are only mostly brought into the US and Canada to enable trash breeders and mills to get AKC registration from the dual-registered parent. I am well familiar with several IKC breeders who do a tidy business exporting to the US/Canada for this reason alone.
 
Amanda,

There is nothing that I would like to see more than breeders having to adhere to all breeding guidelines, but how can we force them? how can you make these people really listen? havn't we tried for years? I hope this production shakes them all to their senses.

I have lost four Cavaliers with SM and I truly deeply despise the breeding practice that goes on and on and how breeders continue to turn their backs on these dogs.
Like I mentioned before the KC could do more, if the dogs havn't passed all health testing then perhaps the pups shouldn't be registered.
But the hard cruel truth is that people will still buy unregistered pups from the worst of breeders if that is the only way to obtain one.

How many times do people come on this list asking for advice on puppy buying and how many still take no notice and pop back up in a few weeks with a puppy and it's picture. I can't tell you how upset this makes me after I have PM'd and given the advice about SM and MVD etc. It falls on deaf ears most of the time. They think it will never happen to them.
I continue to help people with affected dogs and it hurts so bad that I end up in tears. I trawl the telephone directories informing vets in my area about SM, I target the pet shops to ask them not to put up Cavalier advertisments of any kind. I contact sellers on the KC Puppy List asking if they know about SM and send information to them. The list is endless but it never seems enough.

Some people will never listen, if they have a mind to buy a puppy then that is what they do. We seem to be our own worst enemy sometimes. If we didn't buy their pups then surely they wouldn't breed? if the demand died down then the breeding would slow down as well. Perhaps we should just deter people from buying.

So to anyone wanting and looking for a puppy and is reading this ...HAVE THE STRENGTH TO WALK AWAY IF THE BREEDER DOESN'T FOLLOW ALL BREEDING GUIDELINES ON SM, MVD AND OTHER HEALTH TESTS. Support only the good breeders.

Alison.
 
There is nothing that I would like to see more than breeders having to adhere to all breeding guidelines, but how can we force them? how can you make these people really listen? havn't we tried for years?
Click to expand...

Alison,
I am not saying that you or I can legislate for club members to adhere to breeding protocols. The various breeding clubs should take responsibility for introducing adherence to breeding protocols, and enforce and require all members to follow MVD and SM breeding protocols


Some people will never listen, if they have a mind to buy a puppy then that is what they do. We seem to be our own worst enemy sometimes. If we didn't buy their pups then surely they wouldn't breed? if the demand died down then the breeding would slow down as well. Perhaps we should just deter people from buying.
Click to expand...

This is an entirely separate issue to my point.
 
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Margaret C said:
I have come to the conclusion that the majority of breeders will only consider health issues when outside scrutiny, public opinion and/or mandatory rules force them to do so.

I believe that nothing will change unless the pet buying public is informed about hereditary problems in pure bred dogs. They need to know that they should ask breeders to show certificates that prove that health tests have been done & breeding protocols followed.
Click to expand...
This is so true!

A veterinarian once told Colin and I that his children wanted a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel for their next puppy. He would not allow it, because he didn't want their hearts broken. He helped guide them to a different breed whose health problems were 'treatable'. How is that for a vote of no confidence?
 
Cathy,

My vet said the same thing, she said when families come to the surgery asking about dogs and suitable temperments for a family they nearly always bring up the Cavalier as their first choice. Never once has she said the breed was a healthy one.
Then they are informed briefly about MVD and SM as major health concerns and worries, she always tells them to seriously re-think about another breed. A few listen.

Alison.
 
I have to say this is not an approach I would ever take, with all due respect. I would never advise people not to get a cavalier (or I wouldn't be doing rescue) -- there are many serious illness possible in many breeds as well as any mix. I would feel it is very unfortunate to dissuade people away from cavaliers on a health basis when there are many excellent health-focused breeders and when, at this time, most cavaliers will not be symptomatic for SM.

I think insurance claims indicate both breed popularity and health issues. In terms of claims on Petplan in the UK, more claims are made for boxers and westies, last I checked the list. But CKCS have two very serious problems, definitely, and they are also one of the top 10 claiming breeds.

As far as temperamant and behaviour problems, I know DTI see more labradors than any other breed.

I'd like to see responsible breeding, and a willingness by breeders of all breeds to do this. I'd like to see mandatory testing for CKCS puppy registrations, as Sweden does, and see this extended to SM. But then I'd also like to see breeders in all breeds doing the proper health testing to gauge where any individual breeding dogs stands, healthwise.
 
I have to say this is not an approach I would ever take, with all due respect. I would never advise people not to get a cavalier (or I wouldn't be doing rescue) -- there are many serious illness possible in many breeds as well as any mix. I would feel it is very unfortunate to dissuade people away from cavaliers on a health basis when there are many excellent health-focused breeders and when, at this time, most cavaliers will not be symptomatic for SM.
Click to expand...


I find myself in two minds about advice to puppy buyers.
I agree with Karlin that most cavaliers are not symptomatic for SM at the moment but I think that what we have now is only the tip of the iceberg.

Even if every breeder started to MRI & follow the breeding guidelines, or use the EBV programme, I dread to think how many more symptomatic cavaliers are going to show up in the coming years.

They are wonderful pets & companions.
I bought my first cavalier for my daughter's eighth birthday ( she will be forty in two weeks time ) & I still believe that as a breed they are unique in their temperament & their overall suitability as a family dog.

But, I do now tell prospective buyers to think carefully about taking on a cavalier. I warn them to take out insurance & I will only give them details of breeders that I know have MRI scanned at least some of their breeding stock.
I also tell them to make sure they see copies of eyes, hearts, & MRI certificates for both parents.
Even the top breeders have been known to lie.

I'm afraid I do have to say that anyone looking for a puppy in the UK, where the breeder has completely followed the MVD breeding protocol, will find it virtually impossible.

Many breeders will heart test ( & UK Cavalier Club recommendations do not rule out GP vet checks ) but breeders who will wait until the dog and bitch are over 2.5 years & the parents 5 years and clear of heart murmur could almost be counted on one hand.

For fifteen years or more this heart protocol has been available but virtually ignored, despite very great efforts from some Cavalier Club committee members ( especially the Chairman, Lesley Jupp ) in organising seminars & heart testing clinics.

The problem is that these recommendations have never been accepted as part of the prevailing dog breeding culture, & at best have been translated into 'you obtain current clear heart certificates for your breeding stock & keep your fingers crossed that they are still clear when subsequently tested at five'
This will have removed some early onset cases from breeding stock but has not been sufficient to make any real improvement.

I was part of that culture when my stud dog was being used.
He sired his first litter before he was one year old, as I was told that a dog may refuse to mate bitches if he was not trained to stud work while still young.
I was proud of the fact that I would only accept bitches that came with their heart & eye certificates and I gave all their owners copies of Monty's certificates.
If I thought of the heart protocol at all I dismissed it as being impractical.

I know very few breeders who have health as their main priority. Most breeders want to produce a good looking puppy for the show ring, or are breeding for profit.
In both cases health testing could cost money & indicate that they should not used the planned parents.

I own a young tricolour puppy called Faith, she lives with my daughter, her partner, & their children & they adore her. She is everything a cavalier pet puppy should be.
Faith was the best prospect I could buy last year. She comes from a extended family where many relatives have scanned well, the heart history is not so well documented.
I can only hope that she will tick all the health boxes when the time comes to breed from her.

Anyone looking for a cavalier puppy now will find it almost impossible to buy one with parents that pass all the health programmes, but it does not have to stay like that.
I am hoping the television programme will help to make things change.

Margaret C
 
A powerful post, Margaret.

And yes, your points on talking to people interested in cavaliers are well taken. I say basically the same as a caveat to anyone looking for a puppy, and always advise insurance and go through, in detail, both SM and MVD with the new homes of all my rescue dogs too. People need to know.

:flwr:
 
I am very much looking forward to this documentary tomorrow night. I think in Ireland particularly the ignorance of these breed diseases is staggering. Forums such as this help enormously, but only to people who log in and more importantly, heed the advice.

On Tandie's last visit to the vet my father-in-law was chatting to the vet about his own dog that had passed away recently and mentioned he was thinking of getting a new one. The vet said he didn't recommend cavaliers, or westies for that matter.

Although I really don't think that's the answer, in Ireland it seems almost unsurmountably difficult to find breeders that health screen properly. The last time I looked for a pup here I was met with brick wall after brick wall, and I was so disappointed with the 2 people I spoke to from the CKCS breed club from the IKC. We ended up going to Scotland to get Dougal thanks to the support, advice and contacts from some of the board members here (particularly Alison :D). I'll be eternally grateful. He's bursting with health and is everyday such a joy to us. Tandie, on the other hand, was every bit as much a source of joy but always with the knowledge it was on borrowed time. I wouldn't change it for a second but it has made me absolutely adamant that I will NEVER buy a pup that is not from fully screened parents. I would feel like I was supporting abuse of the breed.

I do understand buyers who are so enchanted with the breed that they just want their new pup NOW. They do inadequate research (or ignore it) and buy from irreputable sources. I was guilty of this myself, and learned to my dismay the heartache it will eventually cause. What I don't understand is why this is allowed to happen, and why breeders and kennel clubs (in Ireland specifically) don't make it easier to find healthy pups from healthy parents.

I applaud Karlin and the many knowledgable members of this board who do everything in their power to inform buyers, and help cavalier owners care for their sick pets.

BTW as regards insurance, they paid out over €600 for Tandie in the past 3 months which meant we could have her see a cardiologist and be fully and properly diagnosed, so that the correct medication could be prescribed. In addition the very sick little pup we had 2 years ago (Rio) incurred over €2000 in expenses over a 2 week period. She eventually died at 12 weeks but not before the veterinary hospital in UCD had done everything in it's power to help her. The peace of mind of having insurance is worth it, even if you don't have to call on it.
 
Intrested in watching the BBC program

I would be very intrested in seeing the program but I live in Sweden. Is there any chance of someone recording it or is there anyother way of getting it?
 
Passionate Productions will eventually have the film available from their website as a DVD, but not in the immediate future, they told me today.

Please note it is illegal to copy and distribute a copyright programme such as this and I will have to delete any offers to do so. People may of course make private recordings for themselves. (y)

I have seen the press release for this programme today, and strongly suggest anyone with a cavalier within the broadcasting region of the programme will want to see it.
 
 
Karlin this has really worried me because Dylan scratches a little like the dog in the film clip when I walk him but without the head tilt. He does it off and on for a few seconds each time at the beginning of a walk but stops after about a minute. I feel sick...
 
For anyone concerned, I have several videos here which are worth watching. Keep in mind only about half of SM cavaliers scratch at all; it is important to be aware of all the possible symptoms. Scratching varies widely -- Leo almost never air scratches and only started a year or so ago. His scratching is the start and stop style on walks now but it took 4 years after his MRI to get like that. He would scratch all the way through a walk if not on gabapentin.

For anyone concerned about their own cavalier, chaeck out all possibilities with a vet aware of SM and only if no other cause can be found, get a referral to a neurologist.

Scratching IS a sign of discomfort, and can be a sign of pain, according to Dr Rusbridge, so if scratching is a consistent, unexplained occurrence, I would consider having it checked on one of the low cost scanning programmes in the UK. These are listed on www.smcavalier.com. There are medications that can ease the discomfort and pain of SM scratching.

For an indication of just how uncomfortable to painful scratching can be (or rather the underlying discomfort that causes the scratching), Leo has now removed the entire top black layer of hair on both ears, exposing greyer hair underneath. My vet recently noted how distinct that loss of hair is. His beautiful long dark full ears are gone. :(
 
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