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A Cavalier film, health related, BBC1........
- Thread starter Alison_Leighfield
- Start date
Arlene
Well-known member
Cloe asked,
"So, I'll ask the question...is it this shorter snout coupled with a smaller skull that is possibly causing some of the problem, or at least starting the problem? I know the genetic component is there, but if dogs were bred and selected based on the earlier examples, would the malformation at least be bred out?"
Cloe I have had long conversations with the Canine Genetics Yahoo group about this, trying hard to understand. Karlin has pointed to the study, but this is also what I have gathered.
There are breeds, some even that we know that contributed to ours in the beginning (Japanese Spaniel) that have high round heads and short snouts with 90 degree stops and don't have the prevalence of SM of course. SM does not therefore always come with this head shape. Unfortunately in the beginning of our breed, the dogs that had this head shape happened to have the detrimental genes as well. As genes exist linked to other genes and cannot be selected for individually, as this head shape was refined more and selected for, we got the SM along with it. If our founding dogs with this head shape did not have the SM genes we could have got the head shape without the SM. Luck of the draw there.
So, as Sarah Blott points out in her May report, the correlation between SM and Chiari Malformation is NOT 1 to 1, which means the genes are not the same. They are however close in our breed and may well be linked. We just don't know yet.
This is what she says.
"Heritabilities for Chiari Malformation, Cerebellar Herniation and Medullary Kinking are also very high. Genetic correlations between these traits and SM are positive and, interestingly, less than one. This suggests that different genes may be controlling SM and CM and that it will be possible to select against SM even if dogs have the malformation (CM)."
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/sm_blott_EBV_May_2008.htm
Keep in mind that even though other breeds have Chiari Malformation without SM, I understand that Chiari Malformation in itself can be painful.
My take on all of this is that at one point in our breed, probably long ago, the head shape of a dog might have been a predictor. Now though, with the genes all so spread about and all our dogs so closely related and much the same genetically, it would be too difficult and not reliable enough to just try to breed away from the head shape. The deleterious genes may well now have been shared and exist in all the shapes. We truly need to be able to test for these genes.
Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier
"So, I'll ask the question...is it this shorter snout coupled with a smaller skull that is possibly causing some of the problem, or at least starting the problem? I know the genetic component is there, but if dogs were bred and selected based on the earlier examples, would the malformation at least be bred out?"
Cloe I have had long conversations with the Canine Genetics Yahoo group about this, trying hard to understand. Karlin has pointed to the study, but this is also what I have gathered.
There are breeds, some even that we know that contributed to ours in the beginning (Japanese Spaniel) that have high round heads and short snouts with 90 degree stops and don't have the prevalence of SM of course. SM does not therefore always come with this head shape. Unfortunately in the beginning of our breed, the dogs that had this head shape happened to have the detrimental genes as well. As genes exist linked to other genes and cannot be selected for individually, as this head shape was refined more and selected for, we got the SM along with it. If our founding dogs with this head shape did not have the SM genes we could have got the head shape without the SM. Luck of the draw there.
So, as Sarah Blott points out in her May report, the correlation between SM and Chiari Malformation is NOT 1 to 1, which means the genes are not the same. They are however close in our breed and may well be linked. We just don't know yet.
This is what she says.
"Heritabilities for Chiari Malformation, Cerebellar Herniation and Medullary Kinking are also very high. Genetic correlations between these traits and SM are positive and, interestingly, less than one. This suggests that different genes may be controlling SM and CM and that it will be possible to select against SM even if dogs have the malformation (CM)."
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/sm_blott_EBV_May_2008.htm
Keep in mind that even though other breeds have Chiari Malformation without SM, I understand that Chiari Malformation in itself can be painful.
My take on all of this is that at one point in our breed, probably long ago, the head shape of a dog might have been a predictor. Now though, with the genes all so spread about and all our dogs so closely related and much the same genetically, it would be too difficult and not reliable enough to just try to breed away from the head shape. The deleterious genes may well now have been shared and exist in all the shapes. We truly need to be able to test for these genes.
Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier
That's a good way of putting it.
Perhaps some dogs with a roomier skull to begin with are also at an advantage.
There are strong indications that CSF and flow dynamics have something to do with this too. The North Carolina research looked into this and it has been shown in humans. Thus a dog with a severe malformation does not necessarily ever get syrinxes (SM) while some dogs with a mild malformation do. In humans, I think more have Chiari than SM, but those with SM always have Chiari as well. Chiari alone causes serious problems, the same symptoms as SM, inhumans, but for some reasons the dogs rarely seem to have the malformation and symtpoms. Maybe it has to do with the fact they carry their head differently and neck as they walk on 4 legs and we are upright.
One of the renowned experts on human SM said at the first CKCS SM conference that SM remains an enigma and little more is understood about it now than when he first started working in that area decades before. However now we have the possibility of genome work and that gives a real opportunity to finally begin to understand the genetic background for CM/SM. It is an exciting time for geneticists.
A Cavalier Film ,Health Related ,BBC 1
Could I be allowed to mention that I just don't care who has said what about this Cavalier Dog under discussion
What I do care about though is ,has Margaret C allinated Cavalier Breeders from now MRI Scanning their Breeding Stock through her mention on the TV Film of seeing many,many MRI Scans.
That for me is where the danger is.
Hopefully the List Members here will read the UK CKCS Chairman's Response on the Club Web-Site to the Film
www.thecavalierclub.co.uk
Bet
Could I be allowed to mention that I just don't care who has said what about this Cavalier Dog under discussion
What I do care about though is ,has Margaret C allinated Cavalier Breeders from now MRI Scanning their Breeding Stock through her mention on the TV Film of seeing many,many MRI Scans.
That for me is where the danger is.
Hopefully the List Members here will read the UK CKCS Chairman's Response on the Club Web-Site to the Film
www.thecavalierclub.co.uk
Bet
estalea
Member
hello bet you seem to have a problem with margaret carter stonding up and being counted? none of the results should be secret infact they should be come part of every single breeders health test before the dog/bitch is mated if these test are not carried out then the breeder should not be allowed to reg with the k.c.
if the kennel club along with the breeders who really do care were to stand up and say lets all really start doing what is best for these, they would all gain alot more respect from others.
if the kennel club along with the breeders who really do care were to stand up and say lets all really start doing what is best for these, they would all gain alot more respect from others.
As Margaret herself has posted, there was NO breach of confidentiality -- the breeder involved brought her scans to a show and showed them to Margaret and several other people at the time, with no request for confidentiality. It had nothing to do with a research programme and therefore has no connection at all to whether breeder cooperate in sending scans directly to Sarah Blott. Many breeders knew the status of the dog -- even many pet buyers by the time he was made up as a champion! -- and he had produced at least one symptomatic SM puppy as well.
It would be a somewhat different matter if the scans were submitted only to the club, confidentially, and then were leaked.
But even in such a case, one must weigh up the fact that *26 litters* were born to a dog that, according to the woman who was at Geoff Skerritts with the breeder in question at the time of the scan, was told he had one of the the WORST scans for his age that Skerritt, one of the eminent neurologists in the UK, had ever seen -- and he has scanned over 600 cavaliers alone!! To me, to not bring this terrible situation out into the open, even if it did mean violating confidentiality, would make a mockery of the whole point of scanning in the first place, and allow untold suffering to go forward to new generations in full violation of the KC Code of Ethics. At that point, the right moral decision would have been to speak out. But such a situation never arose in the case of this breeder and this dog. The scans were NOT confidential.
The breeder who accompanied the woman to Mr Skerritt is so outraged at what she saw on Pedigree Dogs Exposed -- an outright denial that the dog had SM as well as the revelation of all the litters born SINCE that scan -- that she has signed a formal letter of complaint to the breed club.
Consider this: 26 litters of puppies from a dog with one of the worst scans seen at Geoff Skerritt's hospital, knowingly bred undoubtedly to many other breeder's dogs who were quite aware of this dog's status as it had not been a secret for years.
That is 26 litters of puppies who may suffer hideous pain; 26 litters of puppies that will will spread those genes on making it ever more difficult to address SM in the breed. Not to mention the families that bought pets from those breeders in good faith. All the breeders who knowingly bred and sold puppies involving this sire are in total violation of the Kennel Club code of ethics.
Yet despite so many, many people knowing this dog's status, not one complained to the KC or the breed clubs.
Margaret finally chose to do this. It was one of the most powerful indictments in the film -- mentioned over and over on discussion lists and radio programmes everywhere -- and I think it was absolutely right to name and shame this duplicity.
Owning a dog myself that requires a daily cocktail of drugs to manage his pain from SM, I am nauseated that any breeder -- no, that such a large group of breeders -- would knowingly buy in to such a perverted, disgusting approach to breeding, the breed, and to the relationship of breeder with a trusting public that buys puppies from such people.
Sad to say I am aware that this is not an isolated story either. For lack of time in the documentary, there are other stories that could have gone in, involving club breeders and some prominent ones at that, which did not. But the stories and the people involved in them are all available to the show producers and if more need to be named and shamed I am sure they will be. In many of these cases I have seen the direct evidence of what these people do and continue to do. :x Maybe the time will shortly come when a formal list with evidence should be drawn up and presented to the chair of the CKCS Club and other clubs and CC'd to the KC so that some of these people are removed from the club and required to explain their actions.
And there are many, many non club breeders, puppy farmers and people down your own streets (maybe even readers of this post who breed casually ) that are busy committing similarly hideous acts because they do not have a clue about proper breeding and do not health test at all. This is not just about club breeders -- it is about ALL poor breeding -- but I firmly feel the knowing, deliberate breeding of affected dogs is the most heinous, disturbing act any breeder can commit. Especially a club show breeder well aware of this problem in the breed.
How these people can look at their dogs every morning, I do not know. How can anyone look at the wonderful face of a cavalier, and willfully inflict a life of pain on this breed.
It would be a somewhat different matter if the scans were submitted only to the club, confidentially, and then were leaked.
But even in such a case, one must weigh up the fact that *26 litters* were born to a dog that, according to the woman who was at Geoff Skerritts with the breeder in question at the time of the scan, was told he had one of the the WORST scans for his age that Skerritt, one of the eminent neurologists in the UK, had ever seen -- and he has scanned over 600 cavaliers alone!! To me, to not bring this terrible situation out into the open, even if it did mean violating confidentiality, would make a mockery of the whole point of scanning in the first place, and allow untold suffering to go forward to new generations in full violation of the KC Code of Ethics. At that point, the right moral decision would have been to speak out. But such a situation never arose in the case of this breeder and this dog. The scans were NOT confidential.
The breeder who accompanied the woman to Mr Skerritt is so outraged at what she saw on Pedigree Dogs Exposed -- an outright denial that the dog had SM as well as the revelation of all the litters born SINCE that scan -- that she has signed a formal letter of complaint to the breed club.
Consider this: 26 litters of puppies from a dog with one of the worst scans seen at Geoff Skerritt's hospital, knowingly bred undoubtedly to many other breeder's dogs who were quite aware of this dog's status as it had not been a secret for years.
That is 26 litters of puppies who may suffer hideous pain; 26 litters of puppies that will will spread those genes on making it ever more difficult to address SM in the breed. Not to mention the families that bought pets from those breeders in good faith. All the breeders who knowingly bred and sold puppies involving this sire are in total violation of the Kennel Club code of ethics.
Yet despite so many, many people knowing this dog's status, not one complained to the KC or the breed clubs.
Margaret finally chose to do this. It was one of the most powerful indictments in the film -- mentioned over and over on discussion lists and radio programmes everywhere -- and I think it was absolutely right to name and shame this duplicity.
Owning a dog myself that requires a daily cocktail of drugs to manage his pain from SM, I am nauseated that any breeder -- no, that such a large group of breeders -- would knowingly buy in to such a perverted, disgusting approach to breeding, the breed, and to the relationship of breeder with a trusting public that buys puppies from such people.
Sad to say I am aware that this is not an isolated story either. For lack of time in the documentary, there are other stories that could have gone in, involving club breeders and some prominent ones at that, which did not. But the stories and the people involved in them are all available to the show producers and if more need to be named and shamed I am sure they will be. In many of these cases I have seen the direct evidence of what these people do and continue to do. :x Maybe the time will shortly come when a formal list with evidence should be drawn up and presented to the chair of the CKCS Club and other clubs and CC'd to the KC so that some of these people are removed from the club and required to explain their actions.
And there are many, many non club breeders, puppy farmers and people down your own streets (maybe even readers of this post who breed casually
) that are busy committing similarly hideous acts because they do not have a clue about proper breeding and do not health test at all. This is not just about club breeders -- it is about ALL poor breeding -- but I firmly feel the knowing, deliberate breeding of affected dogs is the most heinous, disturbing act any breeder can commit. Especially a club show breeder well aware of this problem in the breed. How these people can look at their dogs every morning, I do not know. How can anyone look at the wonderful face of a cavalier, and willfully inflict a life of pain on this breed.
cecily
Well-known member
If Margaret C alone has managed to alienate Cavalier breeders from MRI scanning then they don't deserve to be cavalier breeders, IMHO. I find it astounding that breeders would value secretiveness and privacy over the health of such a wonderful breed. Unaccountable damage has been done by breeding sick dogs... to the breed as a whole, to indiviudual dogs, to the devastated pet owners. If they refuse to have their dogs scanned, then that is a grevious sin in my opinion, and firmly on their conscience. It is not for Margaret, Carol, Karlin or anyone else to be held accountable. The only accountable ones are the irresponsible breeders that would avoid medical care for fear of what? Losing money because they can't breed off a sick dog? That just turns my stomach.
Unfortunately it does seem as if the best way to change the NEED for all breeding dogs to be scanned/tested is for the KC to refuse to register any puppies from non tested parents.
The KC seem more worried about losing the revenue from the thousands of puppies registered each year than they are from the illnesses spreading through cavaliers (and other breeds).
I seem to remember Ronnie Irving (chairman KC) stating that enforcing these tests wouldnt stop the breeding but would stop them being with the KC. In my mind that just means that when you buy a KC registered puppy you would be getting one where the HEALTH of the animal was more important than the profits the KC make.
To the average pet buyer, getting a KC registered puppy makes you think you are being responsible. The truth is it gives you no more guarantees of animal health than buying from puppy farmers and brokers. This is wrong.
The KC seem more worried about losing the revenue from the thousands of puppies registered each year than they are from the illnesses spreading through cavaliers (and other breeds).
I seem to remember Ronnie Irving (chairman KC) stating that enforcing these tests wouldnt stop the breeding but would stop them being with the KC. In my mind that just means that when you buy a KC registered puppy you would be getting one where the HEALTH of the animal was more important than the profits the KC make.
To the average pet buyer, getting a KC registered puppy makes you think you are being responsible. The truth is it gives you no more guarantees of animal health than buying from puppy farmers and brokers. This is wrong.
Yes just so. I want club registration to actually mean something -- not just that the breeders belong to a club and might or might not ever care one iota about health! Puppy buyers do think of club reg as a quality mark. We need to work to make sure it is. Under Irving's logic, no health requirements should be imposed as then the breeders wouldn't belong to the club. Well, if he has such abysmally low expectations of breeders and what a KC can and should stand for and achieve, then what meaning does KC registration have anyway? I know the club has funded research and encourages health -- but that simply is not enough given the state of many breeds and the approach of many breeders.
As Margaret noted elsewhere -- people should write their KCs to demand that registration mean more than a sign of club membership.
I will put up some bullet points as a model for what people might want to argue. I just do not have time to do this til the weekend. But there are plenty of arguments in this thread alone to form the basis for a good letter. CC it to all the CKCS clubs too.
I have been given permission to crosspost this from another list -- the person is known to me but I have removed her name for her own privacy. She feels it is important for this to be known to help the breed and stop the deliberate breeding of affected dogs, in Lucky's name.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Yes, I have seen many many MRI scans.
That is because there has been a band of wonderful breeders who have been scanning for years & sharing their results both good & bad.
They have held scan parties in the West Midlands. "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"
Jeanne, my colleague, & I bought a small light box & it has been used a great deal at health clinics & at the Malvern show to show scans that this great bunch of people have lent me.
I have had a lot of supportive messages since the film was shown ( thank you & I will get back to you, but it will take weeks to clear the backlog )
I have also read some very aggressive comments on international internet lists. The Northern Cavalier Club Chairman wants to punch me, & the editor of the Cavalier Club pet page wants to be next...... and this was before the documentary was even shown.
What happened to the right of free speech?
I have worked for five years with SM researchers. I do not intend to stop.
Even with all the nastiness that has been going on I have still been helping to take the research forward.
I wonder just what my critics have been doing to actively help in these last few weeks?
In June I went to the AHT and gave Sarah Blott over 100 MRI certificates that owners had submitted when putting their scanned dogs on the voluntary list.
Bet, please note:- I had written to everyone and received their permission to pass on this information.
I still have a great many yet to photocopy (all at my own cost ) and pass on.
I had this year's fundraising Christmas card ( design by the talented Eleanor Mancey ) printed.
Poor Jeanne is the lucky person that packs 2000 cards into packs of 5.
A few weeks ago my daughter's SM affected cavalier had to be put to sleep & she then took him to Cambridge for Nick Jeffrey's to post mortem. My family are paying travel, postmortem & individual cremation costs. Murphy' ashes are now in a special spot in her garden.
Murphy is the first cavalier to provide cell tissue in a new project to compare the spinal cords of SM affected dogs with a control set of unaffected dogs.
This is research being carried out by Clare Rusbridge & Nick Jeffrey at Cambridge.
I have already raised money & run a similar scheme that gave practical & financial help to ten owners that were willing to provide tissue from their cavaliers.
The heart tissue goes for MVD research at Edinburgh, so it is such a worthwhile thing to do.
When we have the funding etc. in place & the scheme starts officially I will post the details here.
Margaret C
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
Marvelous work Margeret, just marvelous.
It has been a pleasure to be able to help you when I can even if it's only providing you with a few MRI's of my own affected girls (4) when you have done the health stall at Malvern in the past.
I have always been happy to help regarding SM, with information to others and vets etc and have done this for the past few years, along with rescue.
So very sorry to read about your daughters Cavalier.
Bet have you done anything to help Cavaliers and their owners with SM regarding actual research, information to pet owners/vets, fund raising etc? apart from on the lists? I'm not intending to be be rude by asking, I'm just interested.
Alison.
It has been a pleasure to be able to help you when I can even if it's only providing you with a few MRI's of my own affected girls (4) when you have done the health stall at Malvern in the past.
I have always been happy to help regarding SM, with information to others and vets etc and have done this for the past few years, along with rescue.
So very sorry to read about your daughters Cavalier.
Bet have you done anything to help Cavaliers and their owners with SM regarding actual research, information to pet owners/vets, fund raising etc? apart from on the lists? I'm not intending to be be rude by asking, I'm just interested.
Alison.
A Cavalier Film, Health Related ,BBC 1
I hope I may be able to answer you Alison.
Yes I sure have helped in the Research of SM in the Cavalier Breed,at the beginning when it first reared it's head I helped Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler with their Cavalier Pedigree work
This lasted for over 1 and a half years
Often I was working for around 8 hours a day
I spent ,I would say about £ 500 maybe more on photo-copying and postage sending the information to Penny Knowler
Fleek my poor husband did most of the house-work and cooking ,I dont know why there was,nt a DIVORCE !!!!
So really I dont need to take any lectures from anybody about helping the Cavalier Breed with their SM Problem
But seeing what is happening now ,I really wonder was it worth my while!
Bet
I hope I may be able to answer you Alison.
Yes I sure have helped in the Research of SM in the Cavalier Breed,at the beginning when it first reared it's head I helped Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler with their Cavalier Pedigree work
This lasted for over 1 and a half years
Often I was working for around 8 hours a day
I spent ,I would say about £ 500 maybe more on photo-copying and postage sending the information to Penny Knowler
Fleek my poor husband did most of the house-work and cooking ,I dont know why there was,nt a DIVORCE !!!!
So really I dont need to take any lectures from anybody about helping the Cavalier Breed with their SM Problem
But seeing what is happening now ,I really wonder was it worth my while!
Bet
Carolina
Member
Priceless thread
I am just a Cavalier lover suffering very much from my eldest 7 year old ruby being diagnosed with SM and my new 13 week old puppy showing such severe symptoms that he will be MRI'd on monday. I want to say that it is fantastic to read your discussions in this forum and on this thread. In a few days I have learnt so much from all of you wonderful people that engage yourselves heart and soul to this cause.
Margaret C already has a place in heaven. Her work, commitment and strength. There might be some people angry at her. But I wouldn't mind about them, because their being against Margaret's exposure of unserious breeders is a sign of not having any moral ethics themselves and /or having something to hide as well. Of course there might be some that are just plain stupid and do not understand the advantages of having this problem exposed.
SM is painfull for all involved and the only thing to do about it is to spread the knowledge and stop the bad breeding. Thank you all for helping this breed.
I am just a Cavalier lover suffering very much from my eldest 7 year old ruby being diagnosed with SM and my new 13 week old puppy showing such severe symptoms that he will be MRI'd on monday. I want to say that it is fantastic to read your discussions in this forum and on this thread. In a few days I have learnt so much from all of you wonderful people that engage yourselves heart and soul to this cause.
Margaret C already has a place in heaven. Her work, commitment and strength. There might be some people angry at her. But I wouldn't mind about them, because their being against Margaret's exposure of unserious breeders is a sign of not having any moral ethics themselves and /or having something to hide as well. Of course there might be some that are just plain stupid and do not understand the advantages of having this problem exposed.
SM is painfull for all involved and the only thing to do about it is to spread the knowledge and stop the bad breeding. Thank you all for helping this breed.
Bet, I hope you will find it was worth your while -- after all, Penny and Clare's pedigree work is the research enabling Sarah Blott's work. If they had not compiled the pedigrees, MRI scans, and blood samples, Sarah would be starting from scratch trying to get owners to MRI, donate blood, and offer pedigrees to go with the MRId dogs! That process took the best part of a decade! I really think you need to talk to Sarah to better understand how pivotal Penny and Clare's work is and how important, therefore, your time in mailing pedigrees and contributing your knowledge was to the work being done now.
From a different perspective: do you regret all the time you put into helping with MVD? Because going from the results coming back from the CKCS Club itself, all that work has made NO difference at all, as Simon Swift has reported. There has been no change at all in MVD rates in the Club statistics because, he says, so few breeders follow the MVD protocol. He wrote about this in an open letter to the club last year and expressed his disappointment that yet again, the club had chosen not to make cardiac testing a mandatory part of the registration process. To me that is truly sad -- that people like you put so much effort into helping raise awareness about MVD, and for a decade the protocol has been advocated by the club, but in reality so few breeders follow it still that it has meant nothing to the results the Club records on hearts. In the documentary, Simon Swift, who sees all the results and knows the statistics for the club, acknowledges there has been *no change*. It must be very disappointing to you to have so little change, but I know that that hasn't changed your commitment to pressing for better heart health, just as many of us work hard for better neurological health with SM.
The dog that was mentioned in the documentary as having SM also was bred at 15 months -- more than a year below the MVD protocol age -- and produced the SM dog that I have crossposted about above. The owner has stated this on another list. So some breeder willingly bred her bitch to this dog knowing he was outside the heart protocol.
From a different perspective: do you regret all the time you put into helping with MVD? Because going from the results coming back from the CKCS Club itself, all that work has made NO difference at all, as Simon Swift has reported. There has been no change at all in MVD rates in the Club statistics because, he says, so few breeders follow the MVD protocol. He wrote about this in an open letter to the club last year and expressed his disappointment that yet again, the club had chosen not to make cardiac testing a mandatory part of the registration process. To me that is truly sad -- that people like you put so much effort into helping raise awareness about MVD, and for a decade the protocol has been advocated by the club, but in reality so few breeders follow it still that it has meant nothing to the results the Club records on hearts. In the documentary, Simon Swift, who sees all the results and knows the statistics for the club, acknowledges there has been *no change*.
It must be very disappointing to you to have so little change, but I know that that hasn't changed your commitment to pressing for better heart health, just as many of us work hard for better neurological health with SM.The dog that was mentioned in the documentary as having SM also was bred at 15 months -- more than a year below the MVD protocol age -- and produced the SM dog that I have crossposted about above. The owner has stated this on another list. So some breeder willingly bred her bitch to this dog knowing he was outside the heart protocol.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Bet, your hard work is remembered & appreciated.
Penny, who is Clare Rusbridge's Mother, is still working hard as her unpaid research assistant
These are two amazing women & I feel they do not get the recognition and thanks for the work they have done from breeders or the cavalier clubs.
It was Clare that realised years ago that we would need to identify the gene/s that cause this condition and came up with the idea of collecting blood & sending it to the geneticists in Canada.
She & Penny spent months setting up the scheme & devising the many forms needed.
The gene work is now so advanced that they are concentrating on certain families of dogs. Yesterday she asked my colleague Jeanne to donate blood from Chase, the cavalier, we co-own.
Margaret C
Alison_Leighfield
Well-known member
Thats awful about the MVD results, with there being no change after all that time and work.
Seems dogs can be affected from early on right into late age then. Not good.
My friend Jill has a 2yr Tri boy "Billy" (Whitney's very handsome nephew!) at 22 months it was found he has a murmer, he is seeing a heart specialist now ASAP.
Poor girl lost Toby at 5.5 yrs with SM but with a clear heart and after finding Billy to then find he has the opposite health worry is just devastating to her and the family. It is a shame this has happened so young as he was to be MRI'd in March when 2.5 yrs and if clear offered as a stud dog if needed, she left him whole until the MRI for that reason alone. A shame to lose him with all the SM clear family so closely around him on both sides.
Thank you Bet for answering my questions, somehow may we find the way to help these dogs with both SM and MVD soon.
Alison.
Seems dogs can be affected from early on right into late age then. Not good.
My friend Jill has a 2yr Tri boy "Billy" (Whitney's very handsome nephew!) at 22 months it was found he has a murmer, he is seeing a heart specialist now ASAP.
Poor girl lost Toby at 5.5 yrs with SM but with a clear heart and after finding Billy to then find he has the opposite health worry is just devastating to her and the family. It is a shame this has happened so young as he was to be MRI'd in March when 2.5 yrs and if clear offered as a stud dog if needed, she left him whole until the MRI for that reason alone. A shame to lose him with all the SM clear family so closely around him on both sides.
Thank you Bet for answering my questions, somehow may we find the way to help these dogs with both SM and MVD soon.
Alison.
Unfortunately both these conditions are progressive, which is why people need to try and get the cardiologist certificates for *grandparents* and not just parents. A cavalier should not be bred at all until age FIVE if both parents are not known to be heart clear up til age 5 themselves. If people are following the MVD protocol, by the time a dog is breeding age of 2.5 its parents will be 5 and this can be verified. Good breeders continue to cardiologist check so that they know the status of their dogs throughout their lives.
The ongoing research partnership between the genome research led by Clare Rusbridge, Penny Knowler and renowned geneticist Guy Rouleau, and the estimated breeding value research by Sarah Blott, will hopefully enable the genetic knowledge of both SM and MVD that will make Sarah Blott's EVBs far more precise than they can possibly be based on MRI scans and pedigrees alone. But again the production of accurate EVBs right now relies on breeders giving Sarah all results, not just their good results. And the reality is that if breeders do not work together to get this information and move this research forward, they will have minimal tools for managing the growing crisis of Sm and the existing crisis of MVD -- tools which still would rely on breeders scanning and talking to Sarah.
The ongoing research partnership between the genome research led by Clare Rusbridge, Penny Knowler and renowned geneticist Guy Rouleau, and the estimated breeding value research by Sarah Blott, will hopefully enable the genetic knowledge of both SM and MVD that will make Sarah Blott's EVBs far more precise than they can possibly be based on MRI scans and pedigrees alone. But again the production of accurate EVBs right now relies on breeders giving Sarah all results, not just their good results. And the reality is that if breeders do not work together to get this information and move this research forward, they will have minimal tools for managing the growing crisis of Sm and the existing crisis of MVD -- tools which still would rely on breeders scanning and talking to Sarah.
A Cavalier Film ,Health Related,BBC 1
Karlin,
Yes I do believe it was a waste of time since some of the pedigrees have been found to be flawed, that is why Dr Blott is now needing to have accurate pedigree information by having Cheek Swabs or Micro chipping tahen.
This is what I do wonder if those same Pedigrees are being used in Canada ,and some are flawed ,then does this not skew the information for the Gene Research
Bet
Karlin,
Yes I do believe it was a waste of time since some of the pedigrees have been found to be flawed, that is why Dr Blott is now needing to have accurate pedigree information by having Cheek Swabs or Micro chipping tahen.
This is what I do wonder if those same Pedigrees are being used in Canada ,and some are flawed ,then does this not skew the information for the Gene Research
Bet