Cathy Moon
Well-known member
Permission to cross post the Rhodesian Ridgeback study information in my last post is granted!
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Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed
- Thread starter Karlin
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Cathy,
Since I'm the person who questioned the accuracy of the RR statements in the program, I'm cross-posting here. Since I haven't seen the program but only have read comments from those who did see the program I don't know if the program reported that "the genes that predispose a RR to having a ridge also predispose a RR to develop dermoid sinus" or if the program said "the ridge in an RR is a form of spina bifida." The former statement appears to be true, the latter statement is not true. The difference may not be significant to many, but it is important to me as it speaks to the accurracy of the program. Here is my reply:
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Thanks, Anita for the info on the gene study. I am no expert on genetics, but the study seems to me to be saying that they have identified that the same genes that predispose the breed to the ridge also predispose the breed to the inherited health defect. I presume those genes are present in some combination in all RRs - those with and those without the ridge. This would mean that the breeders have some TOUGH decisions to make - whether to even continue "producing" the breed at all. I don't envy them if they have to figure out how to manipulate the genes so that they keep their breed as is visually and yet eliminate the health defect.
I still haven't seen the BBC program (my speakers are dead so I can't hear it until I replace them) but from some of the comments made, the program seemed to imply that:
Quote:
"The dogs with the ridge have a form of spina bifida and those without the ridge are the healthier dogs who they kill"
as several posts I've read have stated. It seems to me to be more complicated than that.
Of course I knew that dermoid sinus is related to spina bifida. I just couldn't grasp though that people had the idea that the actual ridge was "a form of spina bifida," i.e., the spinal cord was pushed out of the sheath to make the ridge stand up. That horrific thought is what led me to the vet texts to see if that was true, and I was relieved to read that it is not. Thus, my comments.
I see on Cavalier Talk that Cathy reported I am questioning the accuracy of the BBC piece, and the above is why. I am really anal about exact facts and misinterpretations such as the above. If I read an article or see a program and see that some of the statements aren't factual, red flags go up for me about the validity of the entire work. This is why I was the person who questioned the Murray Ingpen letter - there were quite a few red flags that caused me to investigate further.
This is also why I don't post a great deal - it takes me perhaps an hour to put a post together (this one took two hours) because I try to look at sources and verify before I make statements. I try to be pretty precise rather than generalize. Cathy said there are "many recent studies" about the RR - the two papers that you have presented seem to be related as there are at least eight names in common. Even though these two related papers are not "many" studies to my mind, the research looks valid to me and I now understand the point made by the BBC program about the problem in the breed. (Many studies to me would be more like the list that Laura reported about the incidence of SM/CM in Cavaliers or the studies on MVD in Cavaliers.) And of course the thought of culling puppies that don't meet the breed standard visually is pretty appalling, but I wasn't addressing that issue.
Pat
Since I'm the person who questioned the accuracy of the RR statements in the program, I'm cross-posting here. Since I haven't seen the program but only have read comments from those who did see the program I don't know if the program reported that "the genes that predispose a RR to having a ridge also predispose a RR to develop dermoid sinus" or if the program said "the ridge in an RR is a form of spina bifida." The former statement appears to be true, the latter statement is not true. The difference may not be significant to many, but it is important to me as it speaks to the accurracy of the program. Here is my reply:
----------
Thanks, Anita for the info on the gene study. I am no expert on genetics, but the study seems to me to be saying that they have identified that the same genes that predispose the breed to the ridge also predispose the breed to the inherited health defect. I presume those genes are present in some combination in all RRs - those with and those without the ridge. This would mean that the breeders have some TOUGH decisions to make - whether to even continue "producing" the breed at all. I don't envy them if they have to figure out how to manipulate the genes so that they keep their breed as is visually and yet eliminate the health defect.
I still haven't seen the BBC program (my speakers are dead so I can't hear it until I replace them) but from some of the comments made, the program seemed to imply that:
Quote:
"The dogs with the ridge have a form of spina bifida and those without the ridge are the healthier dogs who they kill"
as several posts I've read have stated. It seems to me to be more complicated than that.
Of course I knew that dermoid sinus is related to spina bifida. I just couldn't grasp though that people had the idea that the actual ridge was "a form of spina bifida," i.e., the spinal cord was pushed out of the sheath to make the ridge stand up. That horrific thought is what led me to the vet texts to see if that was true, and I was relieved to read that it is not. Thus, my comments.
I see on Cavalier Talk that Cathy reported I am questioning the accuracy of the BBC piece, and the above is why. I am really anal about exact facts and misinterpretations such as the above. If I read an article or see a program and see that some of the statements aren't factual, red flags go up for me about the validity of the entire work. This is why I was the person who questioned the Murray Ingpen letter - there were quite a few red flags that caused me to investigate further.
This is also why I don't post a great deal - it takes me perhaps an hour to put a post together (this one took two hours) because I try to look at sources and verify before I make statements. I try to be pretty precise rather than generalize. Cathy said there are "many recent studies" about the RR - the two papers that you have presented seem to be related as there are at least eight names in common. Even though these two related papers are not "many" studies to my mind, the research looks valid to me and I now understand the point made by the BBC program about the problem in the breed. (Many studies to me would be more like the list that Laura reported about the incidence of SM/CM in Cavaliers or the studies on MVD in Cavaliers.) And of course the thought of culling puppies that don't meet the breed standard visually is pretty appalling, but I wasn't addressing that issue.
Pat
Cathy Moon
Well-known member
Hi Pat, I visit several UK multiple-breed dog forums where this topic is being discussed, where I don't post but just read. I posted this information here in this forum, because I know the search engines like Google will index the information for searching in just a few short hours. Now if anyone is researching the topic, they will probably hit my post and they'll have permission to cross post. Please accept my apology if you think I was singling you out! I think very highly of you and was not addressing you specifically.
It would be worth watching that segment of the programme, Pat. the statement wasn't that blunt. It pointed out the irony that healthy puppies without the ridge are culled (and that this is in the UK breed standard as the proper approach to take! though at the moment the standard has been pulled from the KC website as 'under review') while puppies with the ridge, which is linked to the development of the health issue, are prized. Therefore puppies are selected for a cosmetic trait which can be linked to a serious health issue in the breed.
Breed clubs themselves (including the South African club) identify dermoid sinuses as similar to spinal bifida in humans:
http://www.dogsvictoria.com.au/Clubs.asp?ClubID=293
Or here: http://rrclubsa.com/a_health.htm
The Australian club notes that it is the norm to cull ridgeless puppies as well.
Breed clubs themselves (including the South African club) identify dermoid sinuses as similar to spinal bifida in humans:
http://www.dogsvictoria.com.au/Clubs.asp?ClubID=293
Or here: http://rrclubsa.com/a_health.htm
The Australian club notes that it is the norm to cull ridgeless puppies as well.
KR
Active member
Hello,
it's me again the annoying semi-German. I don't really know where to write this as the thread has gone in another direction. I have been doing some thinking which is always dangerous.
I udnerstand totally that many people are upset about the cavalier dog that has been discussed, in particular the owners of affected offspring. But there is one thing I do not understand - the upset with the the dogs owner but no upset regarding the owners of the bitches who produced the puppies. Genetically speaking it wakes two to tango and make puppies. The dog in questiuon would not have offspring if the owners of the bitches had not used him. It appears that information regarding the scan was not a secret.
kind regards,
Katherine
it's me again the annoying semi-German. I don't really know where to write this as the thread has gone in another direction. I have been doing some thinking which is always dangerous.
I udnerstand totally that many people are upset about the cavalier dog that has been discussed, in particular the owners of affected offspring. But there is one thing I do not understand - the upset with the the dogs owner but no upset regarding the owners of the bitches who produced the puppies. Genetically speaking it wakes two to tango and make puppies. The dog in questiuon would not have offspring if the owners of the bitches had not used him. It appears that information regarding the scan was not a secret.
kind regards,
Katherine
I've closed this thread and split it into sections.
This is the first -- to continue go to Part two.
Or jump to Part three.
This is the first -- to continue go to Part two.
Or jump to Part three.
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