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Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed

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Only UK and NI residents can use the iPlayer but anyone in those areas can go back and watch the programme. (y)

People can also download the podcast of the FiveLive programme later; it is about an hour.

There are over 18 pages of comments on the BBC News article in advance of the programme, the most they have ever had on a posted story.
 
Karlin said:
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.
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With the comments made by the "face" of the Southern Cavalier Club, it would be interesting to see where the populations of sm suffering cavaliers actually reside within the UK........
 
Karlin said:
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.
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Yep. You may as well name and shame as her name was on the screen. :swear:
 
I had an idea that this programme was going to be upsetting but I actually sat with my hand over my mouth in shock and disbelief for the whole hour that it aired.
I can't believe that the KC does not require any health checks AT ALL :eek:
and the woman whose dog won best in show OMG!!!!!! PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY PAYING A SMALL FORTUNE FOR THAT POOR ANIMALS OFF-SPRING :x:x I'm sorry but, I know there are good breeders out there but the only difference I saw on my TV tonight between BYB's and those who were on that programme is the latter got to be on TV.
 
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Its funny,that they dont like what you say to them yet they have NO GUILT over what they are doing,but we are worried about who we are talking about.Who is in the wrong here.Not us.THEM.
 
Please, please, please if any of you breeders are looking in on this discussion board and are denying these diseases are a huge problem in this beautiful breed, and are showing, breeding and selling pups to pet homes, look at that distressing video of the ckcs on tonights program that is what you're potentially selling, a bundle of heartache to a family and a life riddled in pain for precious dog, please accept there is a big problem, be more health focused do the appropriate tests, please.

That program was shocking.
 
I found the whole programme to be just heartbreaking..people just burying their heads in sand!
 
I would just like to add to the above post.

I happen to love some breeders.:)

It has to be very hard to be a breeder who is doing all they can and see this. You would have to be feeling very defensive even though the program and comments are aimed at the others who are knowingly not doing even near their best.

My heart goes out to those breeders as well, because I do know how they do devote their life to doing well by their dogs, and our pets.

I have not seen the program yet - I am in Canada. I have been reading Jemimas questions and comments on another list for a couple of years. I know her heart is where mine is and where the hearts of the best breeders are. It is with our dogs.

I am glad this film is helping to educate those less involved in the dog world and out looking for a pet about the many, many faces some breeders can have. I think that is advantageous to all who love dogs, and especially to the good breeders.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)
 
I never had been to a Cavalier Show before. I went along to the Malvern Show as my friend has her Cavaliers heart & eye tested there. There were a few friendly people there, but you could very much tell that it’s all about winning, money and what ever it is that makes these people happy. I felt very much like an outsider. Somebody was carrying what looked like a 10 week old puppy around to get it used to the hassle and bustle of the show. The poor thing was shaking like a leaf. Just didn’t like the whole atmosphere.

Sabby
 
Keep in mind that I'm in the States and haven't been able to see this show. I just wanted to verify:

There is a breeder with a Best in Show whose dog has SM yet she continues to breed the dog?

Surely you can't be serious :(

Give me the healthy dog over the BIS with SM offspring (no matter how good looking!!) Health has got to trump looks.
 
I would think that would be grounds to kick that breeder out of "good standing" in the Cavalier club and the Kennel Club she belongs to. Isn't that a violation of the Code of Ethics?
 
The breeders I know who are health focused will only be relieved these issues are out in the open. Right now there is so much pressure on not being seen to make a big deal out MRIs that many health focused breeders cannot even find out who else is MRIing as the subject is verboten. :( I think a large collective sigh of relief went up from many, many breeders who are trying to do something and have run into walls.

On the breeder with the diagnosed cavalier at the Malvern show -- yes this is true -- and at the end of the documentary, a group of prominent CKCS breeders attending a health meeting was asked directly if they thought it was OK to breed from such a dog. They refused to reply and walked off. One, mentioned previously, gave out to Jemima Harrison for ruining the woman's day by asking her if her dog had SM. The breeder, incidentally, said no. And nearly 30 breeders, at least some of whom would have known that dog was diagnosed with SM, chose to use him as a stud anyway. And most of those puppies will, of course, go to pet homes.
 
The Kennel Club General Code of Ethics

30-May-06


activity;src=1113814;type=puppy873;cat=codeo046;ord=1;num=7817815973909.266

All breeders who register their puppies with the Kennel Club accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by its General Code of Ethics.

The registered owners of all Kennel Club registered dogs accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by this General Code of Ethics:
  • Owners will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required.
  • Owners will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties.
  • Owners will ensure that their dogs will wear properly tagged collars and shall be kept fully leashed or under effective control when away from home.
  • Owners will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere where they compete with their dogs.
  • Owners will agree without reservation that any veterinary surgeon performing an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural conformation of the animal, may report such operation to the Kennel Club.
  • Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or breed.
  • Owners agree only to sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the re-homing of a dog if the initial circumstances change.
  • Owners will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.
  • Owners will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind.
  • Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed nor falsely advertise dogs or mislead any person regarding the quality of a dog.
  • Owners will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring a dog. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
You would think so.
 
Karlin said:
The breeders I know who are health focused will only be relieved these issues are out in the open. Right now there is so much pressure on not being seen to make a big deal out MRIs that many health focused breeders cannot even find out who else is MRIing as the subject is verboten. :( I think a large collective sigh of relief went up from many, many breeders who are trying to do something and have run into walls.



Well said Karlin and so so true (y)
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If breeders cannot be open and honest and bring these health issues into the open then we hit on some difficult times. Then added to this if they have the problem that they can't even find out who is scanning and who isn't, then where do they go for their stud dogs and breeding bitches and the next generations from which they will want to breed from?

Surely it would be wrong to take risks by possibly inbreeding or going close to offspring or to an unscanned parent because of the lack of others that are not know about? Surely there are only so many times that a clear scanned stud dog can be used and litters given by a clear scanned bitch? what happens when that gets exhausted and there isn't anywhere new to go? are there enough MRI clear Cavaliers to help this breed?

Hopefully the film will encourage other breeders to scan and to find other clear Cavaliers.

I also want to ask,

If a simple pet home Cavalier, male or female of not the "Typical show type" was found to be MRI clear with a good scan, proberbly mis-marked or even just larger than desired, or a rescue/re-home without any papers, would any breeders consider using this Cavalier if permitted by the owner to open the gene pool a little? I asked this question some years ago and I didn't find a breeder that would. Perhaps times have changed.

Alison.
 
Claire L said:
I'm sorry but, I know there are good breeders out there but the only difference I saw on my TV tonight between BYB's and those who were on that programme is the latter got to be on TV.
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Here here Claire, my thoughts exactly. How exactly are people supposed to find a reputable breeder now?? If the people shown on the program tonight are suposed to be dedicated to the preservation of the breed then I fear the cavalier and many other breeds are doomed. So speak up reputable breeders. Come on here and convince us otherwise.
 
Of course these questionable breeders will get defensive/aggressive when anyone mentions anything about them having to carry out MRI scans and other health checks. Why? As it will more than likely show that a lot of their breeding dogs have issues, and thus, they will make less money from breeding.

The KC should be completely re-structured, and strict rules should be imposed:
1. To be KC registered the breeder should have to perform relevant health checks on the breed(s) they intend to work with. They must produce official documentation from acredited vets to prove such before getting a license to breed any dog.
2. These health checks/tests must be carried out every number of years, depending on breed.
3. Official ongoing inspections must be carried out on breeders facilities.
4. If a dog fails any health check which has implications for offspring, it breeding license would be revoked immediately
5. Public awareness must be a key aspect with the KC. They must make the public aware of the new breeding license. And to make sure that if people are buying a pedigree animal that it comes from a licensed breeder. Which will drastically reduce the chances of their animal developing serious health issues

This will have a severe knock on affect, but in the long run would be good for every breed:
1. Price would rise dramatically for officially bred puppies
2. Supply would fall off sharply
3. Breeders will take a huge financial hit, for some it will be unrecoverable

This would only work with public awareness and co-operation. People would have to know that if they buy an "official" puppy, they will pay more, but they would be getting a much healthier animal. Vet costs would be significantly lower.

If they buy from an underground breeder, they will save money initially, but it could cost more in the long run. Plus they would not be getting a "pedigree" dog.
I could be taking crap here, as I have no real knowledge of how all this works, but to me it seems that drastic measures are needed to stem this increasingly serious problem.
 
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