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Should you put loyalty to other breeders before the welfare of the dogs they breed?

Margaret C

Well-known member
First I must say that I know many wonderful caring breeders, that have tried so hard to produce healthy cavaliers. I am so proud to call them friends.
It is the breeder that does not consider the welfare of the dogs they breed that I wish to change.

I have been asked on another, mainly pet owner, list if I thought it
was right to break the confidentiality of another breeder?

My reply was that I did not think I should put loyalty to another breeder before my concerns about puppies that are being bred from a dog with a painful inherited disease.

Interestingly this answer has not yet shown on the list, although other critical comments about me, from the small core of breeder members, have continued to appear.

Margaret C
 
Margaret, I admire your strength of conviction and, to my mind, there's only one answer :).

I worry for this wonderful breed and its' future. As much as I love Cavaliers, it breaks my heart to see more and more being bred to be in pain.

Too many people bury their heads in the sand and I highly respect breeders who are trying to ensure the future good health of our darling breed, by carrying out the recommended tests and scans.
 
Margaret, when staying 'loyal' to a breeder who knowingly breeds dogs with something like symptomatic SM is seen as the right thing to do, I just don't know what kind of world we are living in! Many terrible things happen in this world when people stand by and say nothing. But every so often someone like yourself comes along to make a stand, and I hope you find that many, many people stand alongside you. You know the merits for what you do, as do the many pet-owners and responsibe breeders on this board :flwr:
 
I agree, as hard as it is, if there's a problem with a dog, I think that needs to come before loyalty to any breeder. I face the same problem with my Italian Greyhounds - They have no where near the extent of problems as cavs, but I get so sick of breeders that don't do any health testing, and claim there's no problems in this breed that require it - VWD, seizures, and patella luxations are getting worse and worse in IGs because of breeders like that!!! And some know there's a problem in their lines, and still refuse to do anything about it or even warn puppy buyers, it's very sad!
 
Margaret, I think you did the right thing, and I admire you for speaking up. It took a lot of courage, and you will most likely need to draw on your courage many times in the future. I will never forget what you have done, and truly hope we are all strong enough to only purchase our future cavalier puppies from the truly ethical breeders (we need to know who more of them are!)

When a group of people, like the breeders who colluded with the BIS breeder, choose to cause harm to others and to hide behind a code of silence, you must stand up for what is right. Otherwise you are conspiring with them, a very painful place to be.

In a college level psychology class, our professor said, "be careful what you do." He went on to explain that when people choose to be dishonest, their beliefs about themselves have to change in order to make themselves right again in their own minds. What eventually happens is they become so dishonest about everything that they no longer know right from wrong.

Many of us on CavTalk have expressed how shocked and appalled we are knowing about the 26 litters sired by a dog after he was diagnosed with a syrinx before age 2. Some of our members have puppies from the litters who are now symptomatic. This is unconscionable. You did the right thing - don't ever question it.
 
Margaret, they choose to lie and promote questionable health in a breed that is so loved. There cannot be wrong in declaring there horrible secret. What arrogance they and their supporters have shown and what compassion and integrity you have shown. God bless you and keep you strong in this righteous endeavor.
 
When Jan Fennell {The Dog Listener} first thought about breeding herr Springer Spaniels, she was told by an experienced breeder that she may never improve the breed, but neither should she do any harm to it....

That really stuck with me, I think there are many Cavalier breeders who would do well to think on that...

My understanding was that you hadn't actually broken confidentiality anyway - the lady concerned didn't do herself any favours and I hope that she will now be removed from the Cavalier club for her actions.

You have my full support - the health and welfare of the dogs MUST come first...
 
My understanding was that you hadn't actually broken confidentiality anyway - the lady concerned didn't do herself any favours and I hope that she will now be removed from the Cavalier club for her actions.

You have my full support - the health and welfare of the dogs MUST come first...

Nicki,

I doubt she will be removed when she has the Southern CKCS club backing her up :mad: - as far as i am concerned, they should both be removed in disgrace!


Margaret,

I truly admire your courage of conviction to say what you did on tv. Stand up for your rights and those of our beloved breed. Some people just should not own dogs let alone be allowed to breed from them, full stop.

If this was put into human terms and there was a set of parents having babies that were going to be deformed, being beaten / starved or whatever. would you then be castigated for speaking up about it? It would seem that because 'it's only a dog' it doesn't seem to matter :mad: :cry*ing:
 
Hi Margaret

Loyalty to Breeders? Where is the loyalty from Breeders like that to this beautiful breed ? If there would be more people like you we probably wouldn't have that many problems with this lovley breed right now.

Sabby
 
I've been thinking about this all week and the only comparison I can think of is the MRSA scandal in our hospitals.It's been covered up for several years,ignored,people who highlighted the problem were villified. Those in authority pay lip service to the problem ,but noone takes responsibility,noone enforces the solution but yet someone will have to mop up the mess.
The welfare of the dogs must come before loyalty to the breeders.
I think in time most breeders will come around to this way of thinking.They just need to be shown the way by the core group who are scanning and most importantly, you've reached people like me who are considering breeding and if you can convince the novices that this is the way to go then there's hope that todays starter will be tomorrow's successful breeder and I think over the next ten years some very attractive clean lines will emerge and that the breeders of those cavaliers will work together for the welfare of the breed.
Sins
 
You did the right thing. You will get a lot of stick now but only from those who, like Cathy said, are lying to themselves. At every step of the way, breeding and buying, we all have a responsibility to make the right choices but without the knowledge of who is not working with ethics and what can go wrong where can we start? Information is key.

Stand strong.(y)
 
After watching the program the other night I wondered if there would be a thread related to the program and I am glad to see there is.

Margaret, you did what was in the best interest for the welfare of the breed as a whole. Myself and my wife only have 1 Cav, but I can sincerely say that you have our full admiration and support.

I was distraught at the sheer disregard some of the breeders showed for there breeds health, placing far more value on the looks of the dogs. I am not going to drone on as this page would soon fill up with my ramblings and utter intolerance for these people.

Again, Margaret, well done!!! Keep up the good work.
 
I have been given permission to crosspost this from another list and it is directly relevant to Margaret's question -- the person is known to me but I have removed her name for her own privacy. She feels it is important for this to be known to help the breed and stop the deliberate breeding of affected dogs, in Lucky's name.

Subject:Re: Controversy over BBC documentary on cavaliers

Here's my 2 cents worth.
I had a beautiful dog named Lucky. He was an owner handled AKC champion
at age 18 months but even months before that he had some SM symptoms.
Lucky required SM surgery once at age 2 and PSOM surgery 3 times. Lucky
died from complicatons of his 3rd PSOM surgery but I strongly suspect
the symptoms that led to his repeat PSOM surgery were probably due to
recurrent SM. Lucky repeatedly attacked one of my other dogs so
severely and so repeatedly and without warning that I eventually had to
place him with a vet cardiology resident. He died about 6 months after
he went to live with her.

Why am I rehashing this....because Lucky's sire was the pictured BIS
winner on the documentary. That made this pretty personal to me. I
tried to contact his sire's breeder/owner by mail (I have never found an
email address for her) to let her know of Lucky's problems but NEVER
heard anything back from her. Since we live on different sides of the
Atlantic, I did not go by for a visit. I did get very gracious feedback
from his dam's owner but nothing from the sire's side. It took 2 dogs
to create Lucky. The fact that his sire has been bred so extensively is
really sad to me. I hate to think that there are other dogs out there
with Lucky's difficulties. I hope there aren't but I'll never know
because that information is not easily obtainable.

I wish first and foremost that Lucky had not had to go through all the
difficulties he went through. I wish that I could have not gone through
the heartbreak of loving him, putting him through surgery, dealing with
dog aggression in a breed that should not be aggressive, having to make
a choice of which dog to keep, having to give him away, and then having
him die. I wish that I felt I could contact a breeder and not feel
anxious about asking about health testing, including MRI's for SM. I
wish I could have another cavalier like Lucky but without SM. I don't
know if any of these wishes will ever come true.
 
Margaret,

The answer is simply NO. The dog has to come first. You did the best and the only thing that a decent person could do. Well done :)

The owner of the BIS on the film obviously hasn't a decent bone in her body or a conscience for what she was doing. How she sleeps at night with all the harm and pain and suffering she has caused is beyond me. Those that support her are surely just as bad and as much to blame. I would like to see some action from the club towards her, do you think that will ever happen???

To the person with name removed:

My friend has a young Tri bitch by this BIS dog and sadly also by MRI found to be SM affected. I am so sorry that you lost your darling Lucky. Our thoughts are with you. I hope one day your wishes will come true and you find a lovely companion to share happy times with again.

Alison.
 
Margaret,
You did the right thing the dogs have to come first
---Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Sam)
 
My reply was that I did not think I should put loyalty to another breeder before my concerns about puppies that are being bred from a dog with a painful inherited disease.

Loyalty to the breed MUST come first and have a higher priority. I know that you have gotten a lot of flack but you absolutely must know that they are so many of us out here that support you and admire your convictions.
 
Margaret ... you are my hero and the voice for so many of us who are either unable or just don't know how to speak up. Never give up, we will always always support you. Thank you for everything you've done, and every risk you've taken to help this wonderful breed. I wish every breed could have you and Carol Fowler to fight their corner. Hopefully as a result of the programme, public opinion will change and people will start to ask questions, and try to find out about these horrific conditions before they buy a pup. Public opinion CAN force change, we all just have to shout long enough and hard enough (and to the right people).

Oh and to keep this on topic ... loyalty is a two way street - if breeders are loyal to the breed, and give these wonderful dogs a fighting chance, they can expect loyalty from us. But if they are selfish, irresponsible and greedy, then I'd rather have a dogless home (or <gasp> have a cat LOL) than give them a reason to breed more SM/MVD affected dogs. And that's tough for me to say because our Lucy is the love of our lives. Until we got Lucy I could never have imagined how much a person could love a dog. It blew me away :)
 
What has been interesting to me to watch on the various lists is that it is all the breeders, and all the ones I would expect, in a tizzy over what was shown (and interestingly some are shocked, SHOCKED about what is going on in every OTHER breed that was shown... but whatever was there about cavaliers is all a terrible lie :rolleyes:). And the people who actually buy the bulk of the puppies, the pet owners, are totally supportive of the whistleblowers and of the film producers (the film also has had good reviews from the TV critics).

From private conversations I also know how much broad support is there from the many, many breeders who are health focused. Some of those regret that some puppy buyers may move away from the breed for some time, but also recognise that might not be a bad thing for demand to drop as cavaliers are a mainstay of the BYB and the puppy farm, and they all hope the film will force the clubs and KCs to be more health focused (not just to fund research now and then but to actually require registered breeders to breed for health and show healthy dogs). For those who argue that 'the public' will now avoid show breeders and rush to the BYBs -- well goodness, not anyone with a lick of sense who spends any time researching the breed in the first place! And if the quality in health terms of the dogs produced by some show breeders is no different from casual breeding by BYBs and puppy farmers, then what does it matter? It is little consolation to the pet owner to find she has a sickly dog that has to be euthenised, but at least it looked nice! :mad:

There's been a huge demand from people to learn how to find health focused breeders, what to ask, etc, in the days since the film ran. Those breeders are out there. People will find them.

The saddest thing is seeing some breeders on some of the lists posting the most unbelievably ignorant posts about SM -- regardless of whether they think the film was right or wrong, the fact that they clearly know zilch about SM (and displaying it!) yet are breeding themselves is absolutely shocking. How far down in the sand must their heads have been? Have they even read the information provided on their own club websites? I guess not!
 
I just feel like I can never have a second Cavalier now, it's really upset me. I hope when the time comes, I can get some help from people on here to find a good breeder and increase the chances for a healthy pup. If I'm not convinced they exist, I can't bring myself to have another. I bet I'm not alone in this. :(
 
Hi Margaret,

I'm just a visitor here, but I just wanted to add my words of support. You were so very brave to speak out as you did, and I know that it has already been at great personal cost.

Reading the overwhelming number of positive responses here, I'm sure that it will not be in vain. There will be be many less dogs who will suffer from this crippling and excruciating disease in future because of what you've done.

God bless you.
 
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