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Pedigree Dogs Exposed: part three

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So, it is alleged that a breeder who has bred the breed for over 30 years has used a stud dog three times, one mating of which produced no puppies. I fail to see a financial or professional conflict as I am sure that a breeder
It is not ALLEGED. It is easily verifiable FACT. To go ahead and breed that dog, starting at 9 months, nearly 2 years before the MVD protocol, and continue after being advised by one of the foremost experts on SM in cavaliers, particularly if she did not inform the owners of the bitches, is a direct violation of kennel club ethics. If other breeders took their bitches to him and were told his scan results and Mr Skerritt's statements about his condition, they too are in breach of kennel club ethics. If they weren't told, the owner of that dog is in direct violation of KC ethics. For a breeder to dismiss the complaint against a fellow breeder when she herself accounts for three of the matings to that controversial dog, without identifying she has this very direct personal interest, would in most publications result in a writer being fired for failing to reveal a central conflict of interest. She of course has a financial and personal interest -- there are two litters of puppies sold by her to people who may now wish to know whether she herself was informed about Beauella Radzinksi's status. The bitch owners benefit from having any worrisome health information about the dog suppressed.

That Norma Inglis chose to use that dog after the owner had scanned the dog raises the issue of whether she in turn was told about his status and chose to breed him anyway, or whether she wasn't told either of which which would be a direct violation of kennel club ethics and those breeders know it. This particular issue is black and white, as is implying one speaks from a neutral standpoint when in fact a personal issue is at the very heart of this matter. All these matings are a matter of public record (the club's OWN public record in fact!), and they are facts to be openly discussed, with all the implications of the decisions behind those decisions. If Norma Inglis feels the dog is being unjustly maligned, then what better way to prove it than 1) asking for a neutral panel to review the dog's MRI as Dr Ingpen has himself requested in a public post and 2) by declaring that her trust in Beverly Costello and her truthfulness about this dog extends to using him three times herself, twice after the scan.

All of those are very definitely black and white issues. Any editor or publisher will agree there are no shades of grey to declaring personal interest IF you choose to publicly make a statement as a columnist in a widely read publication.

The argument with Dr Ingpen is absolutely valid as he has implied a specialist doesn't know his business. That is potentially defamation, and he needs to be able to prove it -- as his statements have been widely circulated on the internet he could be taken to court in numerous jurisdictions, thanks to the breeders who have forwarded his comments all over the place (really, some list owners need to understand their own liability in even allowing such things to be posted in the first place. Maybe they should read my helpful link on what constitutes defamation). He is entitled to an opinion, of course, but not necessarily to express it publicly:

Material may have the potential to defame someone if:

  • The statement made would make an ordinary person modify their opinions of a person as a result of hearing or reading the statement.
Under UK law it is possible to defame corporations as well as individuals.
Defamation actions in relation to the Internet have so far involved libel. Libel must be widely 'published'. You could libel someone using electronic networks by:

  • Sending an email, or an email attachment, where that email is widely posted or forwarded;
  • Making material available via a web page;
  • Posting to an email list or newsgroup; or
  • Streaming audio or video via the Net.
Anyone who actively transmits defamatory material is liable as part of any legal action. Most standard contracts for Internet services include conditions relating to defamation.
In addition several breeders have implied his remarks declare that Beauella Radzinski did not have a syrinx. Dr Ingpen himself has stated he did NOT say this -- indeed he will not state whether he thinks the dog has one or not -- just that he couldn't see one. Nonetheless he does call into question Mr Skerritt's professional ability. That may be his opinion but legally you are not allowed to state it in a public forum, much less print it, as Norma Inglis has done in her column, unless you wish to risk defending a lawsuit. Any professional journalist is well aware of this.

But there is a very easy way for Beverly Costello to settle these questions. Allow Geoff Skerritt to state what he said to her, and allow a neutral panel of neurologists to examine the MRI. Are the breeders who have become involved in this issue afraid of what either of these steps will reveal? If not, and if they trust that Mr Skerritt never gave such advice, and that the MRI shows no SM, then simply prove it. Just bring forth the MRI and perhaps have the club chairwoman speak directly to Mr Skerritt.

Anyone who has been on this site for a long time knows how strictly I control any potential defamation on this site. I only allow to remain online what I know to be true. If that makes breeders unhappy, I am sorry -- I didn't set up this site for breeders, I set it up for the breed and to promote healthy cavaliers and primarily for pet owners, which suits some breeders. Not all -- but I am not looking for all (indeed I stated a short time ago that I was not allowing further breeder memberships except in limited circumstances). There are many other places to go if this discussion makes people unhappy.

As for the breed - it was as ill/healthy on the 16th August as it was on the 18th. Nothing has changed except for humans watching a TV program and attacking themselves about it.
No, the difference is that on the 16th of August, people had no idea how disgusting some approaches to breeding are. On the 18th, a nation that cares about dogs was absolutely outraged. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go have a hard look at how the KC has already radically changed the tune it was singing -- because any idiot could tell them they were damaging themselves and breeders further by pretending that lalalala nothing happened lalalala. I can guarantee you, as a professional journalist who covers both business and a fair bit of politics, that the KC got an earful about that approach from whoever they hired as their media consultants and have changed tack.

And humans aren't attacking themselves about it -- people who care are furious that breeds they love are in this horrendous situation and that many continue to breed regardless of whether they know they are causing potential harm or not. If that makes you uncomfortable, then you definitely would be better off on a breeder list and accordingly I will close your registration here.
 
What do you think happened, Pauline? Pressure from the Kennel Club? I imagine they can create havoc by getting ads pulled as they did to Dogs Today. I didn't know comments could all be just erased. I did email them and asked why they did this-see if they answer. :confused:
 
There is power in the written word and although there is no petition but many individual voices on this forum who can type and demonstrate clear thinking so that a written campaign to the UK CKCS Club in defense of Margaret C.'s accomplishment for our Cavaliers is needed and justifiable.

(secretary) seems as good place to start and this needs to be timely with the meeting scheduled for Oct.5.
:xfngr: That we have good numbers writing their thoughts. Paraphrase-wrong continues when good people do nothing
Is there someone else we can write to in addition to this person? It is my opinion that our emails might not see the light of day.:(
 
What do you think happened, Pauline? Pressure from the Kennel Club? I imagine they can create havoc by getting ads pulled as they did to Dogs Today. I didn't know comments could all be just erased. I did email them and asked why they did this-see if they answer. :confused:

Well I think Karlin's post answers that, she could be in trouble for posting Dr Ingpen's letter. Dogworld isn't the only place I've seen this letter though.
 
Who knows? Perhaps they didn't want open warfare. I checked earlier and a poster was referring to the cavalier club articles which Margaret has apparently breached.
I expected the comments to be deleted,but was surprised to see the entire article pulled.
 
Is there someone else we can write to in addition to this person? It is my opinion that our emails might not see the light of day.:(

I always say emails can be kept private, ignored, deleted, a letter on paper has to be kept in a file and others can see it. Good old paper and pen ;)
 
There was an additional comment that was potentially defamatory and I believe the editors were informed that this was the case and pulled the thread. Note: not defamatory towards the breeders. :rolleyes:

Letters should go directly to the Club chair. If people want to PM me I will send her address -- I do not wish to post it publicly.
 
Letters should go directly to the Club chair. If people want to PM me I will send her address -- I do not wish to post it publicly.

Yes, do not waste your time emailing - send a letter.

US members, take the letter to the post office and get it weighed in order to pay the postage.

Edited to add: we checked the US Postal Service website - it costs $ .94 to send a letter that weighs up to one ounce.
 
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When sending an important letter I find it a good idea to send by registered post, the person at the other end has to stop and sign for it and that way they tend to remember it :) it kind of stands out! you will also get a receipt of time and place when sent as well.
Only costs a few pence more.

Alison.
 
Just received a letter from the CKCS club acknowledging my letter and saying that it will be brought to the attention of the committee at the next meeting.

Having never attended a meeting I don't know what this actually means, whether they just say they have received it or if iit is read and a reply drafted to my points.

I am in the process of writing another one with regard to the meeting about Margaret C to add to their pile.
 
Dog World Breed Notes now has Sept 5 again but with 0 comments. A new article,again by Norma Ingliis, for today with errors in my opinion.
 
I have written a letter of complaint to Dogworld and have pointed out the issues of defamation.

The web site has a glitch and logs me out and in and out again as I browse and each time I come to the breed notes 5th September, I am logged out and unable to post.
 
This is from Margaret re: letters

I would really appreciate members writing a polite & reasoned letter to the Chairman:-

Mrs L Jupp,
60 Roundway,
Camberley,
Surrey, GU15 1NU

I think that the Cavalier Club committee need to hear what ordinary cavalier owners think, not just the vocal group of show breeders who do not want to let anything stop them planning matings with only success in the show ring in their minds.

Thank you for all your support, I really appreciate it.

Margaret
 
Hi Jan

The minutes of the Cavalier Club Committee Meetings are not available to ordinary members, so you never know if your letter has been brought to their attention or not.

I've done the same thing (on other issues in the past) and I don't know if the letter was ever read out to the committee.

Doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep writing though.

Carol
 
I finally managed to get a reply on Dogworld. I changed my original post slightly at the beginning as Norma Inglis criticised me in one of the posts that was deleted for not giving my surname and not saying who I was (of course I don't want to put my surname out on the internet) and at the end I added something too.;)

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/36-CAV-(1)
 
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One of the surprising quotes in Dr Ingpen's letter, so eagerly seized upon by Norma Inglis, Veronica Hull and others, is this:

“1 The clinical research published is seriously flawed and the figures are simply unacceptable. The basis of any study such as this has to be developed from a sound population sample rather than a selected group, which will provide a massive bias rendering it from an epidemiological point of view useless. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon in scientific studies when the opinion of the researcher is clear almost before the study starts.

Let's dissect it. ALL the research published is clinically flawed? Really?! There are now studies from several continents, all of which have had approximately the same incidence of malformation and SM: UK, Holland, France, South Africa, several in the US and one currently underway in Canada. All of these were conducted by completely different groups of researchers with different academic or other professional associations. One significant study -- FUNDED BY THE US CLUB, THE ACKCSC -- had over 30% with SM, and this sample was all relatively young dogs (eg under 5). In a progressive disease, one assumes the younger the sample, the lower the level of incidence, as with MVD in cavaliers:

MRI images were obtained in 11 clinically affected and 48 unaffected CKCS, and in 5 control dogs of different breeds using a Siemens AG 1.5 T MRI. Ages ranged from 1 to 5 years

The results? And remember, this is a study that was undertaken on behalf of, and funded by, the breed club itself! NB: SHM is SM,

Fifty-one of the CKCS were classified as morphologically abnormal; 22 of these had SHM. Thirteen dogs with SHM did not have clinical signs; 2 dogs with clinical signs did not have SHM. Observed morphologic abnormalities included mild to marked cerebellar herniation and occipital dysplasia (50/59), medullary kinking (39/59), cerebellar crowding and indentation (55/59) and a dorsal compressive lesion at the level of the first and second cervical vertebral junction (12/59). The dorsal compressive lesion lay immediately cranial to the syrinx in several cases. Clinically affected dogs were more likely to have SHM than unaffected dogs, and the ratio of the caudal fossa volume to the total brain volume was significantly smaller in affected dogs...

In conclusion, the incidence of caudal fossa and cervical spinal abnormalities is high in CKCS showing clinical signs of Chiari malformation and in unaffected CKCS.

Read the full results here: http://ackcsccharitabletrust.org/ncsureport.htm

So Dr Ingpen is saying a dozen different international researchers all started with opinions they planned to have confirmed in their studies? Even the team hand chosen by the largest US club? Goodness, it is a virtual conspiracy of respected scientists! Given that the vast majority of dogs in every single study were brought by breeders -- not pet owners --who presumably believed the dogs were unaffected as they were showing no clinical signs (this has been confirmed by researchers themselves in several presentations), it seems extraordinary that all these samples could keep aligning at the same general levels of incidence.

Would it not be more likely then that perhaps a doctor in a different field of medicine for an entirely different species of animal, humans, and married to a cavalier breeder and friendly enough with the Malvern dog breeder to personally visit her home on a visit to the UK from Australia, to read her dog's scan (as she insists he did), might instead be the one with an opinion that was clear even before the reading started? icon_nwunsure

In summary, we have:

* a dozen researchers all with the same general results on SM incidence, across several continents, at independent institutions, some professional rivals with each other and no predisposition to confirm each others' studies

versus

* one human doctor married to a cavalier breeder friendly with the breeder in question
 
Well done Pauline. And thanks Karlin for all the information you post - being very concise, I tend to crib bits and pieces for the letters I have been writing.

Very good comments from Beverly Cuddy on the Cold Wet Nose Blog about "Saint Margaret" this morning. Hope that the CKCS club are snowed under with post. Whatever happens at this meeting (if it takes place) they have totally destroyed any credibility as an association that cares about their Cavaliers.
 
Thank you Karlin and all you responsible cavalier owners for this site which I found by accident a few days ago. It is so wonderful to find a forum of sensible people, who know that the most important thing is the health of their dogs, and who don't try and find some ridiculous reason for SM other than that shown by the research. I am horrified by the way that Margaret C has been treated, and I also received a letter from the club about the meeting but cannot go. I shall write a letter however. I could understand if it was a person who had deliberately bred a dog they knew had SM that was being castigated, but to treat the person who has only the health of puppies as her focus in this way is truly ridiculous. Unless the club comes up with some answers to all this, I shall not be renewing my membership next year.

I breed cavaliers in a very small way, having only two breeding bitches who live with us in the house, and have had 28 puppies, none of which have had MVD or any heart problem, either as puppies or as grown dogs. People find out very quickly that it is health and not showing that is a person's main focus in breeding and I get at least one call a week for people wanting a puppy.

However, I have heard from a good friend who had one of my puppies that the dog has been diagnosed with SM and I am devastated. My first reaction was that I would give up breeding, and I spoke to my vet who is very supportive of my 'I don't breed for show, just for health and companionship' policy.

He was also very worried and we talked through the whole thing. He would really like to see a new society for dog breeding in this country, where pedigree dogs are bred according to the outline on the petition which has been mentioned before on this site. No dog should be able to be bred or shown who is in any way suffering due to the disease or deformity inherent in the breed. There needs to be a completely radical rethink around dog breeding and showing.

(I used to show cats, and have won shows that I would never have won with a dog, as championship cat shows are set up so the cats are completely anonymous and judged just for themselves. This applies to the blankets in the cage - must be plain white with no distinguishing marks - and the identification of the cats - white ribbon round the necks with a number attached. Disqualification applies when any flouting of the anonymity rule is tried. It would be interesting to see what would happen if some method of anonymity was applied to dog shows!)

I have two puppies that I am bringing on to breed from in the future, having now retired my two elderly girls, and I have decided that I will follow the protocols as strictly for SM as I did for MVD, and also carry on the protocols for MVD. I will not breed until they are 2.5 years old, and with A scans, and will only breed to an A dog, with no murmur and with cardiologist reports of clear hearts.

What I would like to know is this. Is there any point in having the puppies (5 months old at present) scanned before they are two and a half? Will SM show as clearly now as it would as adult dogs? Can the disease show itself as clear as a puppy and then be seen as an adult?

Thank you again for this marvellous site.(y)

Sue
 
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