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Thread: Pedigree Dogs Exposed: part three

  1. #11
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    Thanks Karlin, That's very helpful. I don't know why you can't post a reply to that particular post of hers. (5th Sept.)

    Edit: I see I can now reply to her post, at last!

    You know what, this makes me so wound up, I can't get over the fact that there are tests for SM, who in their right mind wouldn't use them. If it's too expensive, don't breed. The fact in the program that keeps going over in my head everyday is that if you beat a dog with a stick to cause the same pain that SM causes, you'd be in trouble with the law but breeders are in fact causing dogs excruciating pain by poor breeding practises.

    I'll compose my post after lunch, for now I have to go to a meeting.
    Last edited by *Pauline*; 7th September 2008 at 09:37 AM.
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  2. #12
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    HollyDolly - totally agree with you about making the scan public.

    I wrote the the Kennel Club and the CKCS at the end of last week and one of the issues I mentioned was the petition against Margaret C. I said that not only was this a disgusting thing to do, but it was also a method of distracting from the main point -ie: the Beauella dogs scan. If there is nothing wrong with the scan then why doesn't Beverley Costello show the results?

    I am a non-showing, non-breeding member of the CKCS club, but still a member, so I wanted to know how they could possibly justify supporting Ms Costello and not Margaret, a member of their Health Committee, who is working so hard to improve the health of all Cavaliers.
    Jan
    Owned by Rufus (B&T) and Piper (Border Terrier) and in loving memory of 12 years of Toby joy (Tri cavalier) - waiting at the rainbow bridge.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyDolly View Post
    Having read the Cavalier breed notes in this weeks copy of Dog World I am again angered beyond belief at the correspondents statements in relation to the best in show winner at Malvern. Should we be surprised, no I do not think so as the correspondent has used the dog in question 3 times at stud and who also condemns the person who exposed the breeder.
    She comments that Breeders need people to give loving homes to their puppies does she not mean BUY their puppies and that pet-loving public need breeders to supply them, WHY? Yes I absoutely adore cavaliers and cannot imagine life without one but not to line the breeders pockets when they cannot even follow the protocols laid down and think about the pet-loving public who ultimately have to pay the vets bill.
    She also comments that some groups are regarding these breeders as criminals, is it not criminal to use and SM affected dog on was it 26 Bitches? I think so. I also think it is criminal to organise petition signing in order to get Maragret C expelled from the Cavalier Club, one of the few breeders who do much for the health of the Cavalier. Perhaps now is the time for the owner of the best in show to make the scan public, surely that would prove one way or another who is right after all having been accused of the dreadful act would one not try to set the record straight.
    I agree with every point you've made. The scan needs to be turned over to a mutually agreed upon veterinary specialist panel for interpretation.
    Cathy Moon
    India(tri-F) Geordie(blen-M)Chocolate(b&t-F)Charlie(at the bridge)

  4. #14
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    If it's too expensive, don't breed.
    Well, I do think the expense is prohibitive to do many dogs in many parts of the world, and will need to be dealt with in some regions -- and the gEBVs should also deal with things so that scans will not be a necessity -- but there is simply no reason for UK or Irish breeders not to be scanning. I know that the clubs are offering £100 per dog scans at special breeder scanning days with Geoff Skerritt for example -- that is about $175 at current exchange rates, and about €130. It is NOTHING.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  5. #15
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    I've sent a reply to Norma Inglis on Dogworld. Thank you for the help I had checking I got my facts right before I posted.

    http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/36-CAV.aspx
    Last edited by *Pauline*; 7th September 2008 at 04:06 PM.
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  6. #16
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    Great reply,Pauline Think you nailed it
    frecklesmom
    Learning new things everyday

  7. #17
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    Has ist occurred to anyone here that according to the protocol it is permitted to breed with a dog who has a syrinx but is asymptomatic?

    My internet availbaility is restricted at the moment - so I have not been able to follow the development of this discussion closely enough. I have the impression that many people are accepting everything the BBC dosumaentary hs said without questioning it for themselves.

    The dog is nearly 5 yaers old now.

    kind regards,

    Katherine

    back on line properly on Monday
    Last edited by KR; 7th September 2008 at 04:20 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KR View Post
    Has its occurred to anyone here that according to the protocol it is permitted to breed with a dog who has a syrinx but is asymptomatic?

    My internet availbaility is restricted at the moment - so I have not been able to follow the development of this discussion closely enough. I have the impression that many people are accepting everything the BBC dosumaentary hs said without questioning it for themselves.

    The dog is nearly 5 yaers old now.

    kind regards,

    Katherine

    back on line properly on Monday
    I haven't come across any evidence that the documentary was inaccurate.
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  9. #19
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    Has ist occurred to anyone here that according to the protocol it is permitted to breed with a dog who has a syrinx but is asymptomatic?
    Yes, this has been discussed several times and I have pointed out many times that according to the recommended breeding advice offered by a panel of neurologists, dogs may have syrinxes.

    However there are specific grades that relate to the age of the dog when scanned, whether diagnosed with SM and whether symptomatic. To be graded, the dog MUST be at least 2.5.

    As Beauella Radzinski was diagnosed at 16 months, he would have been graded an E. That means he does NOT automatically become a D when he gets to be over 2.5 or even 5. He must be rescanned or he becomes an F -- graded NEVER to be bred from. Also, you must add to this that the neurologist has said the dog had one of the worst syrinxes he had seen in a dog this age and should NEVER be bred from, regardless of whether symptomatic. This came from a man who is one of the leading specialists in SM in cavaliers.

    Whether the dog is symptomatic or not, we can only take the owner's word. But she already denied on the BBC programme that he had SM. The breeder who accompanied her and was there for the whole conversation between the neurologist and the dog's owner has sent a letter to the breed club clearly stating that this is what Geoff Skerritt said and has stated she sent the letter because she could not believe her ears when she heard the breeder deny her dog had SM and was horrified to find she had bred him 26 times at least since the scan and the advice. In a later interview the breeder also refused to confirm or deny that he had been diagnosed with SM. Either he has, or he hasn't. It is also relatively easy to medicate so that symptoms do not show.

    The debate over the scan at least could be easily resolved by having some neurologists not involved in the debate between Geoff Skerritt, who took and interpreted the scan, and Dr Ingpen, who has stated ONLY that he couldn't read it, NOT that the dog didn't have SM (as some are implying from his letter even though he has clarified himself that this is NOT what he has said). As several breeders have now put forward Dr Ingpen's letter as 'evidence' of the dog not having SM (rather bizarrely), and Dr Ingpen himself suggested having a panel look at the scan, then surely that is the obvious next step with the breeder accepting the interpretation and this being relayed to the club?

    I wonder whether any of the bitches bred to him were scanned? If the breeder told the owners of the bitches about Mr Skerritt's professional advice? Curious how the owners of the bitches have all remained silent -- or not revealed themselves even when they publicly come out defending the breeder! If they have nothing to hide, and are advocating honesty and truthfulness, then why are they hiding?
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Pauline* View Post
    I haven't come across any evidence that the documentary was inaccurate.
    Katherine,

    I understand Margaret C (CKCS club Health Committee) saw the scan and has confirmed that the breeder was recommended not to breed from that dog as a result of the scan.

    If (which I do not believe) this is wrong, why has Ms Costello not allowed an independent expert to look at the results?

    Have a look at the Health Forum (posts 168-170) from Margaret C and Karlin and decide if you think these are the actions of an honest breeder.

    Best wishes,
    Last edited by Jan Bell; 7th September 2008 at 06:04 PM. Reason: addition of missed words
    Jan
    Owned by Rufus (B&T) and Piper (Border Terrier) and in loving memory of 12 years of Toby joy (Tri cavalier) - waiting at the rainbow bridge.

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