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Pedigree Dogs Exposed: part three

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Sandy,

Please don't take this as a "snidy" comment, as I am just curious and want more information.

You seem to know Norma and I accept the fact that she had bred many long lived Cavaliers. But from the article in Dog World I understand that she doesn't believe that MRI scans help.

I am no expert on this and but from all the reading I've been doing over the last couple of weeks I don't understand why the MRI scanning and breed protocols (if followed) wouldn't lead to healthier Cavaliers in time, and I am frightened for the future of the breed if there are no changes.

I understood that the CKCS club itself is recommending scans and the use of the breeding protocol as detailed on this site. The Kennel Club too was criticised on Pedigree Dogs Exposed because these were not being enforced, not that they disagree with them.

Why would DNA testing be better, and if so, shouldn't people have been campaigning in the same way for this if they feel it is the way to go?

It seems to me that the TV programme has enabled a lot of debate and discussion, so I would like to understand why this breeder feels as she does. From my understanding she seems to be saying that the MRI from the Malvern dog is irrelevant.

As I say, please don't take this as an "attack" - I would just like to hear your opinion.

Best wishes,
 
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Im with you 100% on that Jan.
Our breeder publicly stated she would not have her dogs scanned. The interview did not go into the reasons why (looks to me like it was cut in several places then re-joined later!!!). I cannot understand why with all the advice they give US i.e. heart scans and use an older dog as stud with good heart grades , they then go and do the complete opposite. I too cannot understand the thinking behind it.
diddy.:confused:
 
Sandy,

Please don't take this as a "snidy" comment, as I am just curious and want more information.

You seen to know Norma and I accept the fact that she had bred many long lived Cavaliers. But from the article in Dog World I understand that she doesn't believe that MRI scans help.

I am no expert on this and but from all the reading I've been doing over the last couple of weeks I don't understand why the MRI scanning and breed protocols (if followed) wouldn't lead to healthier Cavaliers in time, and I am frightened for the future of the breed if there are no changes.

I understood that the CKCS club itself is recommending scans and the use of the breeding protocol as detailed on this site. The Kennel Club too was criticised on Pedigree Dogs Exposed because these were not being enforced, not that they disagree with them.

Why would DNA testing be better, and if so, shouldn't people have been campaigning in the same way for this if they feel it is the way to go?

It seems to me that the TV programme has enabled a lot of debate and discussion, so I would like to understand why this breeder feels as she does. From my understanding she seems to be saying that the MRI from the Malvern dog is irrelevant.

As I say, please don't take this as an "attack" - I would just like to hear your opinion.

Best wishes,

First of all {smile}-- thanks for making sure I didn't get defensive. I do tend to get prickly fast. (Hubby says it is a character flaw of mine-lol).

Norma isn't in the minority. I'd say there are a HUGE percent of breeders that don't trust MRI's. MOST cavaliers have crowded cerebellums, most have the malformation-- so what does the MRI tell you?? It tells you the dog does or doesn't have SM today. It doesn't tell you if the dog is in pain (some dogs without SM show signs, some dogs with heinous SM (on MRI) are without pain and loss of feeling). It also really doesn't tell you if the dog SHOULD be bred. A clear dog by MRI could be a walking timebomb of genes just waiting for the female carrier to finish the poly genetic puzzle.
MRI's are a tool-- to hopefully use to breed away from SM. A blood test could be a much more exact tool. Compare the genes "carried" by both parents may be able to predict percentages of clears much easier.

Many breeders have put more years of their lives into their dog breeding program than we've been alive. They have taken their lines where they want to go. They want choices. If people don't like the choices the breeder has made-- then they have a choice to not buy a pup or to buy it elsewhere.

sorry, I have to stop mid thought-- I have 5 minutes before I have to leave for work.
 
"Many breeders have put more years of their lives into their dog breeding program than we've been alive. They have taken their lines where they want to go. They want choices. If people don't like the choices the breeder has made-- then they have a choice to not buy a pup or to buy it elsewhere."

Sandy, I know this sentiment well. I find, though, that when dealing with pups that may easily become afflicted and suffer with MVD or SM because of the choices the breeders want to make, there are more ethics needed behind a decision than simply "then they have a choice to not buy a pup or buy it elsewhere."

That pup born to suffer is still going to suffer no matter who purchases it or even if it stays in the breeders home. We should not be told that then we should be sitting idly by and letting this happen.

When breeders are given tools which they can use to make guided choices, and then refuse to use them, or find them inconvenient, then, in my mind their ethics are up for questionning. As a concerned citizen then I have a duty not only to not buy from them, but to also try to make changes so they cannot do harm.

As a breeder I would also feel I have a duty to make sure those within my breed were also doing their best to do no harm.

Of course, even following protocol there are going to instances of pups born with problems, but at least the breeder would have given it the best chance, not a mediocre one. To ignore sound MVD and SM protocol is not doing their best.

While this breeder - and many others - may have forgotten more about the breed than I know, as far as I am concerned that does not give them excuse for completely ignoring not only SM protocols, but MVD protocols as well. (Pedigree databases show that the majority of the breeders of the well known affixes are still ignoring both.)

If any one can explain the thinking that their experience should trump the protocols, I am up to trying to understand. As yet I am having a great difficulty.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier :)
 
AS you should know... Protocol is a way of doing things. IF you can't get the experts to agree, you are never going to get breeders to agree. IF a breeder has inferior pups, trust me, word gets around.

I really don't know why you are pushing the protocol issue at all.
 
"so what does the MRI tell you?? It tells you the dog does or doesn't have SM today."

I am sorry for the double post but I just saw this.

Does not that MRI also tell whether or not that breeding dog/bitch has a greater or lesser chance of producing pups with SM, just as a dog clear of MVD until an older age has a better chance of producing early onset MVD?

I believe the work the Dutch have done has shown this about MRIs and SM.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier :)
 
"so what does the MRI tell you?? It tells you the dog does or doesn't have SM today."

I am sorry for the double post but I just saw this.

Does not that MRI also tell whether or not that breeding dog/bitch has a greater or lesser chance of producing pups with SM, just as a dog clear of MVD until an older age has a better chance of producing early onset MVD?

I believe the work the Dutch have done has shown this about MRIs and SM.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier :)

NO-- It doesn't tell you whether or not the genes are loaded to express a problem.
MVD is a deterioration of the valves-- I'd say SM would be more like HD.

ARE you this same Arlene?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Missie was born on 12/28/05 http://www.designermixes.org/Dogs/Bio.aspx?Dog=136
Rocky was born on 1/21/06 http://www.purebredpups.org/Dogs/Bio.aspx?Dog=24

The puppies were born on 2/17/08..... http://adamstoyspaniels.faithweb.com/photo5.html[/FONT]
 
"I really don't know why you are pushing the protocol issue at all."

So then we should just all ignore protocol and trust that the breeders are doing the best they can.

That has worked well for the breed so far hasn't it?

How much improvement has been made in hearts over the last 14 years?

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier :)
 
"IF a breeder has inferior pups, trust me, word gets around."

Word might get around in the breeding world if a breeder has inferior pups, but the poor unsuspecting general public have no idea.

I really don't know why you are pushing the protocol issue at all.

I think it's reassuring to pet owners if the protocol was adhered to and worthwhile for the health of the dogs. There are no guarantees but it's a start.

If a breeder doesn't feel MVD and SM protocol are important, what steps do they take to try to avoid dogs with these conditions?
 
If you are the breeder of those mixed puppies, it appears you didn't follow any protocol for either disease.
 
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Pauline: there are other methods in use to combat mvd and sm that the mvd and sm protocols.
 
KR....would like to hear much more about these other methods to combat MVD and SM other than the set protocols. Enlighten us....

Alison.
 
As it is assumed that SM is polygenetic, two of the three clubs in Germany are using the standard method used to combat polygenetic diseases similar to the approach for PL etc..
Dogs with SM are not allowed to breed. Dogs which have sired sm dogs are only allowed to breed with dogs who have not sired sm dogs - In addition to that the parents of sm ill dogs are recorded and there is an aim to have as few of these as possible in a pedigree. This is not unlike the standard approach to combat PL except it goes a level further.It is a model which is also being emulated in other countries.
There are of course other clubs which are not following this model. We have found that the most current 4 dogs reported to us with SM would not have been born, had the model we are using be used.

As Woodhaven wrote, a scan will show you wether a dog has a syrinx or not at a particular time - it does not tell you if it will produce sm ill dogs or not - in particular as a syrinx can develop at a much later age.
I personally know an elderly stud dog (now 8 ) who has never had a symptom in his life and has fathered many puppies. Out of interest he was scanned and he has a syrinx - but not a single puppy sired by him has developed SM symptoms. I also know of an entire kennel where all dogs were free, but who still show symptoms which no one can explain.

No model is perfect - and can not prevent everything - so it is only usual that there be other approaches.

I am not going to discuss whether this approach is better or worse than any other method as only time will tell.
.....

With regards to MVD in the Netherlands there is a scheme to introduce mandatory regular farb doppler examinations of dogs used in breeding.

In a separate thread I wrote of the MVD situation as reported by the club I am a member of in Germany.

I am sorry I am not writing this all again - I do not feel uncomfortable here, as I have seen some very judgemental behaviour - something which is contradictory to my very nature.
 
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KR, thank you for describing other methods, it's important to be open minded until we have this all figured out. I mentioned this before, but my only dog who has MVD is the one born to Swedish dogs who have some of the strictest rules. Sometimes it happens.
 
Nancy, I am the breeder of those mixed puppies.

That mixed litter also has taught me, when looking at pedigrees of breeders, to allow for the occasional litter that might have been an accidental breeding. A careless door left open by a teen son at Christmas break last year meant an early litter.

My first litter was scheduled for my dogs at the age of three in the spring of 2009.

The four pups are placed closely with friends who are aware the breeding was too early (both in the pair were just under two at the time of breeding and we had not yet MRId Missie as planned).

I am sure that this thread should stay on the topic of Cavaliers, and not mixed litters which is a whole 'nuther' topic which the owner of the board does not welcome, so I will ask that questions be aimed at my p-mail.

Arlene and her three :)
 
First of all {smile}-- thanks for making sure I didn't get defensive. I do tend to get prickly fast. (Hubby says it is a character flaw of mine-lol).

Norma isn't in the minority. I'd say there are a HUGE percent of breeders that don't trust MRI's. MOST cavaliers have crowded cerebellums, most have the malformation-- so what does the MRI tell you?? It tells you the dog does or doesn't have SM today. It doesn't tell you if the dog is in pain (some dogs without SM show signs, some dogs with heinous SM (on MRI) are without pain and loss of feeling). It also really doesn't tell you if the dog SHOULD be bred. A clear dog by MRI could be a walking timebomb of genes just waiting for the female carrier to finish the poly genetic puzzle.
MRI's are a tool-- to hopefully use to breed away from SM. A blood test could be a much more exact tool. Compare the genes "carried" by both parents may be able to predict percentages of clears much easier.

Many breeders have put more years of their lives into their dog breeding program than we've been alive. They have taken their lines where they want to go. They want choices. If people don't like the choices the breeder has made-- then they have a choice to not buy a pup or to buy it elsewhere.

sorry, I have to stop mid thought-- I have 5 minutes before I have to leave for work.





Thank you for explaining that the MRI cannot be used to show if the dogs SHOULD be bred. You have answered most of the questions I had, and it helped me understand.
Thanks again
 
Hello,

I have not been eaten yet, so I will continue. Generally regarding genetic diseases (not sure that is the correct term, I have been out of the UK for over 20 years) in assessing who do breed with whom, you do not only look at the phenotype of the dog i.e. the way it is visibly constituted (how it looks, its health results etc..) but you also try to get an udnerstanding of the genotype of the the dog (the way the dog is genetically made up, which is not always expressed) and they way you do this is by looking at it's ancestors. Ancestors are of the utmost importance!

Regarding MVD - it can appear at any age, and the way the illness progresses can be very very different. For me a dog that is heart clear at 2,5 years is the norm! It is here, and should generally be nothing to get excited about. But the heart clear dog at 2,5 can be very sick at 4 - and this is where you have to gauge the likelihood - this is no exact science. If I were to have a hear clear dog at age 2,5 years whose parents were seriously ill by the time they were 6, I would think very seriously about not breeding this dog regardless of whether this complied with a protocol or not! If I were to have a dog who is heart clear at 2, whose parents and grand parents were heart healthy to a great age, I would expect that the same could apply to this dog and would not be concerned whether breeding this dog were against a protocol or not. This is because we are talking about an inherited disease - and whilst the heart clear dam at 2,5 may fulfill a protocol then there is a higher likelihood that she herself may develop the disease, and depending on what the offspring inherit from their sire - they could too.
I hope I have misunderstood the part of the protocol saying not to breed a dog with a murmer before it is 5 years old - because I think breeding one with a murmer after that age is cruel. Please can someone explain that part to me.

kind regards,

Katherine
 
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